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  • micr0c0sm
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    I actually love the interplay of engagement when I'm a skulk biting a node, forcing the marine to get a good angle, and figuring out if there is a time to attack or not.

    Tense moments are good! It should be an investment to be an instant-flush out for any marine to save a node.

    I like vanilla better, and I definitely want comms to research grenades more :)

    Leave a comment:


  • aeroripper
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    This is the main reason I like the mod. I think the hand grenades added something very good to NS1, and I want to see that return in NS2. Having more grenade types is cool, but for me the minimum feature set should include the NS1 nade. The timing of the grenade firing when you throw is also very odd. It feels like there is a delay or something beyond when I would have expected it to be thrown. Not sure if this is animation or timing or really bad network latency or what.
    They current modifier is set to 1.2s for the grenade lifetime after throwing. I shortened it to .8 to test and the skulk didn't have time to get really get away. It was more effective at killing skulks behind RTs, but unfortunately marines don't usually pickup a grenade when they respond to a RT under attack anyways. In NS1 you always had them with you which explained the consistent use.

    Originally posted by Retraced View Post
    Ah, Aero's original plan has been revealed!

    I don't like the grenade res change to 2 (for the same reasons that you enjoy it), but it's not a huge deal. I'd have pretty strong feelings against playing with a mod that gave 2 free cluster grenades on spawn though, I still really think that we should stay away from making changes that major. As we saw with the skulk speed change around this time last year, the slightest change to balance (especially involving early gameplay-- skulks and vanilla marines) can make a massive difference... and not necessarily in the way that you'd like it to.
    Agreed. I'll tinker with it a bit more but not planning on adding it back. Probably going to do a new cosmetic mod. Maybe some ARCs with spinning chrome rims.

    Leave a comment:


  • Retraced
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
    ... since we had this mod installed for so long I hear players asking for nade research more commonly now.
    Ah, Aero's original plan has been revealed!

    I don't like the grenade res change to 2 (for the same reasons that you enjoy it), but it's not a huge deal. I'd have pretty strong feelings against playing with a mod that gave 2 free cluster grenades on spawn though, I still really think that we should stay away from making changes that major. As we saw with the skulk speed change around this time last year, the slightest change to balance (especially involving early gameplay-- skulks and vanilla marines) can make a massive difference... and not necessarily in the way that you'd like it to.

    Leave a comment:


  • blu.knight
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
    3) Cluster grenades are superb at taking out clog/hydra dens. They're not so great at killing a skulk behind an RT, and of marginal use when throwing them in vents. It's easy enough to tweak their explosion radius to be much more focused, but negates the usefulness of its anti-gorge role. The single explosive grenades that were so ubiquitous to RT defense/vent engagements from NS1 is gone.

    I could change it so players spawn with 2 cluster grenades on every respawn, and I think I could figure out how to do it once grenades are researched. I could also tweak the focused effect of cluster grenades to make them better at killing skulks behind RTs. That would bring them back in line with how they were used in NS1. I might play around with that a bit. In the meantime, I do appreciate the feedback.
    This is the main reason I like the mod. I think the hand grenades added something very good to NS1, and I want to see that return in NS2. Having more grenade types is cool, but for me the minimum feature set should include the NS1 nade. The timing of the grenade firing when you throw is also very odd. It feels like there is a delay or something beyond when I would have expected it to be thrown. Not sure if this is animation or timing or really bad network latency or what.

    Leave a comment:


  • aeroripper
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by miragezors View Post
    How hard would it be to implement carrying 3 grenades at a time or multiple different kinds? I always liked in Counterstrike that you could carry multiple kinds of grenades, but obviously there was a cost involved.
    Changing carrying capacity is a simple value change. Not sure how to edit the code to do the latter.

    What if we make the research 5 T-Res for grenades, allow cluster at research but pulse/nerve available at AA research, make them cost 5 P-Res, and you receive 3?
    It's easy enough to do, but 5 res is too much.

    What if we make a grenade variety pack purchase for 10 P-Res where you get 2 of each kind? This would be the only way you could have different kinds at once.

    Just thinking outside the box to make them more strategic.
    Wouldn't really work, that's a big investment for something you might not even be able to use in combat, much less not be pickupable by other players on death.

    My personal feelings on the mod/vanilla in general:

    1) Grenades are good at 2 res. More frequent use and doesn't sap your pres bank as fast as having them at 3 res.

    2) I like having them back to research due to the limiting nature of having the AA unlock the advanced grenades. The downside is now comms are back to getting them late game due to other concerns. Although, since we had this mod installed for so long I hear players asking for nade research more commonly now.

    3) Cluster grenades are superb at taking out clog/hydra dens. They're not so great at killing a skulk behind an RT, and of marginal use when throwing them in vents. It's easy enough to tweak their explosion radius to be much more focused, but negates the usefulness of its anti-gorge role. The single explosive grenades that were so ubiquitous to RT defense/vent engagements from NS1 is gone.

    I could change it so players spawn with 2 cluster grenades on every respawn, and I think I could figure out how to do it once grenades are researched. I could also tweak the focused effect of cluster grenades to make them better at killing skulks behind RTs. That would bring them back in line with how they were used in NS1. I might play around with that a bit. In the meantime, I do appreciate the feedback.

    Leave a comment:


  • bentring
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by Concussion1000 View Post
    I'll just say what everyone else is thinking:

    Exos should be free and researched at the beginning of the round. Please offer me a strong counterargument to this, because I have yet to find one.
    My counterargument is that then as comm I couldn't prevent my team from buying exos.

    Leave a comment:


  • blu.knight
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by BeigeAlert View Post
    I want to be able to buy a pack of 100 grenades, for 50 rez. :P

    But seriously though, I find grenades are most useful for killing RT-biting skulks. It's so frustrating to play that silly ring around the rosie game when the RT is just 2 bits away from death. Grenades are the solution! :D

    I would change the cost back to 3 from 2 as this has almost never been an issue for me, and I would make it a researched ability again... but maybe the AA is still needed for the advanced grenades? Nerve gas seems a little bit OP early game anyways, so I like this change.
    I really enjoyed our changes to grenades, and am betting something similar will wind up in vanilla. I agree trying to shoot a skulk hiding behind a structure is pretty obnoxious and I don't think very fun for either player. Cluster grenades seem very ineffective to me in general (I almost am never killed by them), and seem more for flushing aliens out of vents/behind structures than to do serious damage on their own. Since there is a res cost associated with them, and you lose them if you die, I think there is sufficient trade-offs to running out with them. I don't like the grenade through a phase gate, but I don't like that regardless of if they need to be researched or not. It's awkward to do as a marine due to the current mechanics of the grenades, and annoying as an alien.

    Leave a comment:


  • Enhancer
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Grenades are too powerful to be free and at a lower pres cost. I think the most balanced version of them is their vanilla behavior. A 10 tres cost for three types of grenades that your team can use to flush out vents, completely clear Gorge clog/hydra fortresses, toss at a res node to get an easy skulk kill, etc. is a good investment for the commander if that's what they find the Marines need.

    Leave a comment:


  • miragezors
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    How hard would it be to implement carrying 3 grenades at a time or multiple different kinds? I always liked in Counterstrike that you could carry multiple kinds of grenades, but obviously there was a cost involved.

    What if we make the research 5 T-Res for grenades, allow cluster at research but pulse/nerve available at AA research, make them cost 5 P-Res, and you receive 3?

    What if we make a grenade variety pack purchase for 10 P-Res where you get 2 of each kind? This would be the only way you could have different kinds at once.

    Just thinking outside the box to make them more strategic.

    Leave a comment:


  • BeigeAlert
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    I want to be able to buy a pack of 100 grenades, for 50 rez. :P

    But seriously though, I find grenades are most useful for killing RT-biting skulks. It's so frustrating to play that silly ring around the rosie game when the RT is just 2 bits away from death. Grenades are the solution! :D

    I would change the cost back to 3 from 2 as this has almost never been an issue for me, and I would make it a researched ability again... but maybe the AA is still needed for the advanced grenades? Nerve gas seems a little bit OP early game anyways, so I like this change.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eternaly_Lost
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
    I'll disable the mod tonight. It does limit some grenade related strategies since you can't research advanced nades early.

    Personally, I rather like it and would like to see it back on. And I don't really see much is wrong with it. 2 Personal res for 2 nades, is more then fine, and I do see them being used occasionally.

    Yes, some time the marines pile though the phasegate and they all throw nades killing the skulks biting on it, but that why you keep some skulks away or have bigger things bitting on it.

    I feel given the Marine pressure on Team res, any research cost that is more then 3 res is going to be delayed, and even if it was free and took just 15 seconds to search, would often be left alone because they could be doing other research at the time.

    Yes, a nade is a little annoying if you are a skulk trying to chomp a node down, but keep in mind the marine is spending 1 personal res for every nade that comes at you.

    Leave a comment:


  • aeroripper
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by OscarTheCouch View Post
    As of the last month or more the server has been receiving many complaints about the grenade mod and how its not fair early game as well as any other part of the game without being researched. Pls discuss.
    Originally posted by Retraced View Post
    If nothing else, I don't think that their cost needed to be reduced. Getting them earlier, free research or not, is a buff vs. vanilla already.

    Unless you're looking to make welders the same price as nades... :D

    Edit: Either way, I agree with Roland below and would personally prefer going back to vanilla.
    Originally posted by jack^ View Post
    we should try this for a while.
    Originally posted by bentring View Post
    Personally I'd prefer that nades just go back to vanilla.
    I'll disable the mod tonight. It does limit some grenade related strategies since you can't research advanced nades early.

    Leave a comment:


  • jack^
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by miragezors View Post
    I've honestly forgotten about the vanilla version of hand grenades. How do you research them, cost, etc?
    researched at the armory. i dont know cost/research time as i can't find them on the wiki

    Leave a comment:


  • miragezors
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    Originally posted by Concussion1000 View Post
    I'll just say what everyone else is thinking:

    Exos should be free and researched at the beginning of the round. Please offer me a strong counterargument to this, because I have yet to find one.
    Only if Onos get the same treatment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Concussion1000
    replied
    Re: Grenade mod

    I'll just say what everyone else is thinking:

    Exos should be free and researched at the beginning of the round. Please offer me a strong counterargument to this, because I have yet to find one.

    Leave a comment:

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