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  • balance

    Just curious if the idea of bring everyone back to the ready room when using balance has already been discussed?

    I don't know if/to what extent balance takes in consideration for the players already on the teams when applied. if so, then ignore this.

    on a second note, i'd like to know balance's logic.

  • #2
    Re: balance

    Balance determines each player's historical score-per-minute (SPM), and then it tries to create two teams whose average per-player SPM are equal.

    It will always be imperfect. To variable degrees, its effectiveness is threatened by folks already being on a team.

    Sometimes, players just want to play on a certain team, and the current implementation respects that.

    I'd prefer that the server pick everyone's team every game, but I don't get everything I want. I'd /love/ to hear that there was overwhelming demand for the server to be changed such that no one could join a team pre-game /except/ via balance.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      Re: balance

      Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
      I'd prefer that the server pick everyone's team every game, but I don't get everything I want. I'd /love/ to hear that there was overwhelming demand for the server to be changed such that no one could join a team pre-game /except/ via balance.
      I prefer the current implementation.

      Balance does not produce balanced games so reliably that I think the trade-off would be worth it. It's a good way to force people to join, and is marginally better than having them jump in the random pit, but beyond that there are too many factors for it to deal with since NS is a game that depends so heavily on group dynamics.
      remi.D

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      • #4
        Re: balance

        Agreed. Balance is certainly doing a better job now than it used to, especially when the server is saturated with regulars that it has comprehensive info on, but I don't think that it's at the point where trusting in its judgment in all circumstances will lead to a substantially better experience. Especially when you factor in the inevitable backlash (that Re-Traced guy tends to complain pretty loudly when he can't go Marines and pistol all the things). I'd love to amend my view when/if the changes and improvements to the Balance plugin you hinted at a week or two ago go through.
        Last edited by Retraced; 04-11-2014, 12:42 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: balance

          [MENTION=6]jack^[/MENTION] This idea that we're discussing... that "balance is good, but it's not /that/ good" -- is fair, and it's a reflection of the perception that, while balance is marginally better than random if/when I'm /apathetic and/or ambivalent/ about which team I play, it's not at all impressive enough to force me /away/ from a team I'm biased toward (for whatever reason). I've tried to respect this perception in my current implementation ("If you care so strongly about a team, you're invited to join that team /before/ someone balances" <--- server imposes delays before folks are allowed to balance).

          remi raised the point that making balance impressive enough to have absolute control all the time is VERY difficult. No one in the NS2 community (UWE or otherwise) has yet pulled it off.

          Re-Traced acknowledged that balance is better than it used to be, and hinted that I am, in fact, trying to improve balance -- which is correct. But, because it's SO hard (put another way: because the odds are GOOD that further effort will NOT raise everyone's perception of the offering), it's not my highest priority from a DEV standpoint.
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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          • #6
            Re: balance

            Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
            I'd /love/ to hear that there was overwhelming demand for the server to be changed such that no one could join a team pre-game /except/ via balance.
            But what of people who are trying to play together then?

            Personally, in my time on the server, very few automatically balanced games seemed to turn out too well, they just end up getting stacked on one side or the other :p

            Admittedly, my range of samples are quite small.
            Who you gonna call?

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            • #7
              Re: balance

              Using admin commands to force buddies to the same team solves that problem (gotta /know/ they're buddies first, but buddies typically become conspicuous). The "buddies" scenario is fairly rare, and yet.... any "utopian" balance implementation would need to address that concern, for sure.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: balance

                I think i have to agree with remi and retraced. I wasn't really arguing to change the current way balance works. Rather i had hopes of improving it and wanted to have this conversation. Are there other things we can help improve the way balance works? I suppose that this is probably left to you wyz.

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                • #9
                  Re: balance

                  I was playing today on Chuckle, and someone (I forget whom) suggested having balance take into account the commanders lack of being on the field. Though, I guess that would only really come into play if the commander is among those being balanced.

                  Does balance take into account the scores of the people all ready on a team?

                  Personally, I'd like to see the server balancing teams taking into account a player's voiced preference for marines / aliens. Though, I have no idea on the effectiveness, or more importantly, practicality of such an implementation.

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                  • #10
                    Re: balance

                    Originally posted by Master Bob View Post
                    I was playing today on Chuckle, and someone (I forget whom) suggested having balance take into account the commanders lack of being on the field. Though, I guess that would only really come into play if the commander is among those being balanced.

                    Does balance take into account the scores of the people all ready on a team?

                    Personally, I'd like to see the server balancing teams taking into account a player's voiced preference for marines / aliens. Though, I have no idea on the effectiveness, or more importantly, practicality of such an implementation.
                    Yea that was me. I find that sometimes, especially early on in the evening before a lot of the other regulars are on, I'll be one of the strongest players on the team... but at the same time the only person who knows how to command (so REALLY early... ;) ) More often than not, this results in a loss as balance has balanced the teams with an assumption that every player's skill will be equally utilized. When one player is stuck inside the command chair all game, that's not true, and it becomes especially apparent when most of the team's total skill is in that one player.

                    I'm not sure what the best way to fix this would be... let alone ANY way to fix it that wouldn't seem needlessly complicated. Maybe balance just shouldn't take into account the commander's skill, if there is a commander present... or maybe make commanders be the first to join their team.

                    Or maybe I'm just a really terrible commander and it's all in my head! lol

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