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if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

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  • if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

    You likely know I'm all-too-comfortable conceding when I'm certain the other team's earned the victory. "On to the next game", and all that.

    I can offer an alternative, for those of you diametrically opposed to "giving up".

    When you think the game's called, and if we have our team's blessing, count me in for coordinated efforts for the sake of /practice/ until the game ends (naturally, or via concede, after some practice).

    To be clear, this is when the game is "over". The purpose of what I'm talking about isn't to "win", but rather to practice for practice's sake.

    Also, to be clear, this noise about "one more rush on their base" will typically be /outside/ the spirit of what I'm talking about (though, if the spirit's right, naming their base as the target is fine, I suppose).

    This all-too-common business about /always/ trying to win against all odds when the other team has clearly played the better game bores me to tears. Cumulatively, that posture is hugely expensive for anyone with both a reasonably fashioned thirst for victory and limited time for video games.

    A few examples of what we might practice (the actual list is much, much longer):

    ) skulks rally in the hive and don't push the adjacent room until there are at least X of us (whatever makes sense for X, given conditions)

    ) multiple marines block Fade exits intelligently as we're defending our last room

    ) we work together to hold our next-to-last node no matter what

    ) we focus on escorting a Gorge to something three rooms away, together, just to prove we're able to despite coordinated opposition

    Given the right context, any of those examples can be asinine to even attempt, even in the name of practice. But you get the idea, I hope.

    You get the idea. And, of course, we can concede at any time once we've done some of that.

    Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, we can concede immediately. But, as I said, I know some of you shrivel at that thought.

    But this business about "it's still humanly possible to win -- we shouldn't change anything about how we're treating this game competitively!!1" is bbooorrrriinnnnngggg, and it comes with the opportunity cost of the personal improvements and trust building that inevitably comes from shared practice for practice's sake, even if only for a minute or two.
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  • #2
    Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

    Some other great ones to try, in the interest of practicing good teamwork although it can also result in turning a game around:

    1. Organize a split-push. Have your team wait in the hive room or outside a marine PG and have two gorges ready to bile marine base. Push both locations simultaneously. Doing this several times I have seen result in games turning around. As the gorges hitting base, your goal is to destroy tech, not to try to insta-win (as that is highly unlikely). Do some lasting harm, and hopefully distract enough marines so that the rest of your team succeeds in pushing them back.

    2. Try to have every marine RT blinking on the map at the same time. Extended: Have one person scouting a base/PG at the same time and when there are no marines there, call all skulks to hit it immediately, bypassing any marines on the way.

    3. Go in pairs of 2 or more and kill every possible marine RT within 30-60 seconds. Follow it up with some split pushes... etc.

    4. Have skulks wait at the entrance to a room with marines. Have some other skulks flank the marines. Don't go into the room until the moment the marines turn to engage the flanking skulks (use your map!)

    5. Go into a room as a pack, see how long you can all stay alive by taking a few bullets, falling back, ducking behind things, etc. Think of how units are micro'd in an RTS. The hurt unit always falls back and in the case of NS2, should only go in for the kill when the marine is reloading after wasting some more bullets on a friend.
    remi.D

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    • #3
      Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

      Also to speak to the when-and-how-to-concede sentiment:

      I don't like turtling, and if all hope is lost, I want to go to another game and I will concede. BUT, If the game is just beginning to slip you should take it as an opportunity to rally and practice some teamwork and bring home a win.

      Far too often I see people vocally call the game long before its truly over (e.g. "well, this game's over."). If you feel that way, put in your concede vote -- but keep your negativity to yourself. You have no idea the harm you do to the team's chances when you say something like this. Even smaller negativeness are hugely damaging, and I know I am as much to blame as anyone (and please call me out on it if you notice me being overly negative, I would like to improve on this). You can't change the past, but you can learn from it. So, focus on communicating productively, not negatively.

      Similarly, if you see people voting for a concede and the game is not over or you don't agree, just ignore it. There's no benefit to asking why someone is conceding early. The reason is always the same: it is a vote of no-confidence. You can fix that by just speaking up and trying to motivate and rally your team.
      remi.D

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      • #4
        Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

        I find this all too often where the game is clearly lost, and 1 person feels the game can still be won, and mentions some nebulous plan about attacking base without attempting to organize anything themselves. What usually happens is 5 minutes pass of getting slaughtered until the marines move in for the kill. If the concede count is at 4/6 or even 5/6, you should act in the best interest of the team and vote concede.

        That being said, I'm usually for a quickly organized, and well directed ditch effort (organized by the commander, or competent team member) when the game is lost to hit marine base. Although, if that fails, its time to concede promptly. The person organizing this rush shouldn't start with "we could still hit main base, the game is not lost!" It should sound more like "everybody meet in the hive within the next 10 seconds, we're rushing marine base through mezz. Aero, Remi.D can gorge for bile bomb".
        Last edited by aeroripper; 04-23-2014, 08:42 AM.
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        • #5
          Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

          This would be fun though like aero said there are also times where it's better to concede. Either way if we get the chance and mention it lets try and do a few of these practice tactics :)

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          • #6
            Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

            I'm all for practice teamwork, I think we all can use more of that. Though in terms of conceding it largely depends on my mood. In general I feel people concede too early, "we rushed marine start at 2:00 and all died, let's concede..." or "we all died when we tried to take that tech point even if we did kill 2 fades, a lerk and a gorge, time to concede..." Most of the best games occur when both teams are being flexible and willing to try to keep pushing (in a coordinated fashion, even if the coordination is as Remi suggested and having attacking all nodes solo or splitting the team and the like). I don't mean times like "...we have no T-Res and are down to 1 node and the enemy has all their respective upgrades and we have no p-res but let's keep trying and never give up!"

            That's just frustrating for the team and I'd agree a waste of time, while technically still possible to win, the likelyhood is probably 5% or less. Many times though at least on alien one advanced lifeform can make or break it since the advanced lifeforms are the major upgrades of the alien team. If you have multiple players with enough P-Res to evolve I feel that it's worthwhile to have them do so and get the teammates to support them in a push to some objective even if it's just 'practice' for the most part. Or on the Marine side if you have several marines with enough P-Res and you have the tech for it, it's worthwhile to do a JP+Weapon push and IMO it could be just as useful to practice varied weapons, one GL, one flamer with a supporting shotgun/lmg or two can make for some good teamwork if working together since each weapon has it's own strengths.

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            • #7
              Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

              I'm all for practice teamwork, I think we all can use more of that. Though in terms of conceding it largely depends on my mood. In general I feel people concede too early, "we rushed marine start at 2:00 and all died, let's concede..." or "we all died when we tried to take that tech point even if we did kill 2 fades, a lerk and a gorge, time to concede..." Most of the best games occur when both teams are being flexible and willing to try to keep pushing (in a coordinated fashion, even if the coordination is as Remi suggested and having attacking all nodes solo or splitting the team and the like). I don't mean times like "...we have no T-Res and are down to 1 node and the enemy has all their respective upgrades and we have no p-res but let's keep trying and never give up!"

              That's just frustrating for the team and I'd agree a waste of time, while technically still possible to win, the likelyhood is probably 5% or less. Many times though at least on alien one advanced lifeform can make or break it since the advanced lifeforms are the major upgrades of the alien team. If you have multiple players with enough P-Res to evolve I feel that it's worthwhile to have them do so and get the teammates to support them in a push to some objective even if it's just 'practice' for the most part. Or on the Marine side if you have several marines with enough P-Res and you have the tech for it, it's worthwhile to do a JP+Weapon push and IMO it could be just as useful to practice varied weapons, one GL, one flamer with a supporting shotgun/lmg or two can make for some good teamwork if working together since each weapon has it's own strengths.

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              • #8
                Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

                I really like this idea; tactical practice is great!

                So most definitely count me in as well.

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                • #9
                  Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

                  Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                  If you have multiple players with enough P-Res to evolve I feel that it's worthwhile to have them do so and get the teammates to support them in a push to some objective even if it's just 'practice' for the most part.
                  This is a GREAT point. When the game starts slipping and if you think you're coming into concede territory, take a look at the scoreboard. See if there's anyone there that could go lerk/fade/onos who normally doesn't. I know I've called davean out several times to go fade in situations like this and although he warned me he'd probably die very quickly and, for the most part, did; it gave him a chance to practice the fade and get better in an environment where there was less consequence for failure.

                  I think this is a worthwhile usage of the end-game as well and helps to promote the supportive forgiving atmosphere that we try to foster at TG (and, like everything else here, could end up turning the game around or at least make future games better).
                  remi.D

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                  • #10
                    Re: if you want to practice group teamwork "after the game", count me in

                    Originally posted by blu.knight View Post
                    This is a GREAT point. When the game starts slipping and if you think you're coming into concede territory, take a look at the scoreboard. See if there's anyone there that could go lerk/fade/onos who normally doesn't.
                    +1 to this point. Personally, I am best as a skulk (and only go Gorge if needed). As a result, I often have quite an amount of p-res left over, even on a poor round.

                    Count me in for practice as well :)
                    Apotheosis

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