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(6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

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  • (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

    Myself, King Covert, and Husky discovered today on Taunt that:

    * Subtracting bots does not work at all. (Although adding does)
    * Team Balance turned on mysteriously, causing bots to not spawn (e.g. 10 bots vs. 3 marines was detected as unbalanced)
    * Marines auto-conceded due to unbalanced teams (same situation as above)


    Also some more:
    * Can't F4
    * We did a very small captains game (2v2), and after round 1, it just insta-respawned everyone (like a Reset Game vote) on the same teams as Round 1. It didn't put us to RR.
    Last edited by ShamelessCookie; 06-10-2014, 03:05 PM.

  • #2
    Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

    Anyone know with confidence when we last played bots w/o these issues?

    Anyone use bots yesterday (Mon 6/9)?
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

      Yes, there was a bot game last night (monday 6.9) to seed the server around 10:30ish (?). i believe it was on docking. did not have issues with added/subtracting bots. i dont remember which server we were on.

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      • #4
        Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

        Yes, and subtracting was working with people messing with bots a LOT more than they should have (people don't understand that 15+ will bring the server to its knees, and it has nothing to do with difficulty).

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        • #5
          Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

          people don't understand that 15+ will bring the server to its knees
          Is that true? I've seen multiple rounds played with 25 bots without an issue. Clients may have an issue with that many skulks in one room, but I don't notice any problems on my high end system. Could it be a client-side problem you're describing?

          If there really is a server problem when > X number of bots, should we lower the cap to whatever X is?

          In any case, we played another round of bots after starting this thread, and they seemed to work properly this time around. Not sure what changed.

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          • #6
            Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

            "To its knees" is a bit subjective, but the server definitely does/can have issues when there are more than 20 bots active. I have a strong system as well.

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            • #7
              Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

              Typically, around 20 bots or so is when the server begins to rubberband a bit.
              25 is the max that you can add, though I don't remember where that limit came from. It's a moot point though, considering the server will be rubberbanding by that point anyway.
              If you want to know how to really bring the server to its knees, I refer you to this old clip from our early days of streaming:
              http://www.twitch.tv/koizuki/b/482992061

              Shameless:
              I mentioned this to Wyz earlier via IM, but as he's not responded here yet, I'll say that the issue you ran into was most likely caused by NS2+, and not by any of Wyz's bot code.
              Your mentioning of being unable to F4 back to the ready room was what led me to link the two, as I came across this post on the NS2+ thread which talked about an errant update to NS2+ leaving players unable to F4. Comparing timestamps of the two complaints also seemed to match up, and it seems there was another NS2+ update which was released shortly afterward to correct whatever issue was causing this. I suspect this also "fixed" the bots on the TG servers.

              As always, if there continue to be problems, feel free to report with as much information as you can -- even mundane things like being unable to F4 here was pretty key.

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              • #8
                Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

                Originally posted by DarkScythe View Post
                Your mentioning of being unable to F4 back to the ready room was what led me to link the two, as I came across this post on the NS2+ thread which talked about an errant update to NS2+ leaving players unable to F4. Comparing timestamps of the two complaints also seemed to match up, and it seems there was another NS2+ update which was released shortly afterward to correct whatever issue was causing this. I suspect this also "fixed" the bots on the TG servers.
                Yeah, this sounds like it would have been caused by that. (Also, my bad.)
                remi.D

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                • #9
                  Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

                  Thanks! That makes sense, since the bots "F4" to leave the game, and that functionality was certainly broken. Also the round ending leaving people on teams is just another manifestation of being unable to go to the ready room.

                  I'm not sure where the team balance and Marine auto-concede came from though. That only happened once.

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                  • #10
                    Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

                    Sometimes when the server is having issues you may want to discuss with others on the server and do a server reset via the portal to see if that will correct, though in this case it sounds like the bots problem was likely related to the other NS2+ update.

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                    • #11
                      Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

                      Kronos:
                      The portal page server reset only works if everyone on the server is in the ready room...which in their case, they could not get there.
                      That said, usually if a mod is missing (because the Steam workshop is 100% reliable) and no one is being given Guardian rights on the server, then that would be a good time to use the portal reset.

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                      • #12
                        Re: (6/10) Bots broken - Can't minus - Team Balance kicks in - Marines auto-concede

                        On the note of too many bots causing server problems (for those interested and not already knowing how this goes), I'm going to try to explain this high-level for those that don't want a deep explanation (as the quip of bringing the server to its knees was not in-depth enough, but I'm sure we don't want a coding discussion).

                        One of the early problems with NS2 performance (aside from the time before JIT in the Lua engine) is that it's single-process and it iterates over all the entities it has pretty often. So when the server and client start communicating about the state of all the things in play at a given time, this data gets crunched a lot more for how many clients and entities it has to expound all this to. Obviously not every update is in every tick of the server and every communication packet, but there is some reconciling that happens every now and then to "resync" how the client and server see the status of things. The reconciling is the point where you have rubberbanding, as it takes too long to calculate everything in a given tick of the server.

                        This has become better over time, but this is still a thing (and somewhat unavoidable given UWE's design of the game overall). This is also why you see more rubberbanding in later game than early game. Also note this is all processor-bound (it doesn't take up much memory), and is not highly affected by a given client (though there are other issues with a low performing client for another thread). When you add a bunch of bots, bots are special entities that used to (I don't know if they've changed this) emulate a lot of a client, rather than just being another entity like a whip or turret. Obviously the communication isn't done reconciling both ends for each both, but there is a sanity check based on what the bot sees as a client vs what the server sees looking at the bot (or again, at least there WAS).

                        The fun bit here is not whether the server can handle X bots or not, but whether it can handle it over the life of the entire game (especially if there is an alien commander in the situation, as is usually the case when these push-pull bot addition discussions take place in my experience). I actually used to cause problems as an alien comm before they limited cysts distance from each other because I could have so many cysts in a room that it would cause this issue prematurely, even on low-client servers. It was a great tactic to prevent ninja-phasegates (you couldn't build on infestation at the time) and it kept marines SO busy. It's just an example of what I'm saying here, and it becomes more prevalent when all the entities live in Lua land, not the core Spark engine.

                        I hope that wasn't too geeky, but answers the question. (And again, I don't typically keep up-to-date on all the code in the game, so some of this could be off from the current code-base.)

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