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  • "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

    I hear folks "championing" arguments /like/ these when we've lost, and I facepalm so hard.

    we "might as well" rush their main
    it "can't hurt" to try a hail mary
    etc

    If these pushes are important to you, let's do them. If you take a distinct joy from such circumstances, let me participate.

    But to suggest there's no cost seems to me either ignorant, disingenuous, or simply a poor choice of words.

    There is a cost. In my experience, it's about 20 minutes per week worth of cost.

    Given that most moments end with nothing strategically gained for the participating team, please consider the time cost when you use phrases which suggest there is none.

    And, when one /does/ turn a game around, please consider the previous 25 which /didn't/ when praising the one that did.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

    Actually, it's probably closer to an hour a week, if I'm honest. I was trying not to exaggerate, but I overdid it, I think.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

      I don't know. Some evenings it feels like I'm playing TGNS WinOrLose because nobody wants to play longer than three minutes without conceding. Oh, the opening of the game didn't go perfectly exactly how we wanted? Time to concede! (disclaimer: I don't really like the concept of concede anyway to an extent so I'm biased)

      I've seen a lot of "hail marys" actually go through, or close. I personally think it is worth that last base rush, because you never know? Especially if you have the whole team in on it. Those are epic games.

      Now sure, when you have 3-4 people on a team trying to pull off that "last base rush" then I agree with you. Rarely is that point reached in a game if an entire team is working together anyway.
      Who you gonna call?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

        Rarely is the whole team in on the rush if they couldn't coordinate up to that point.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

          Wasnt there a recent post in this community essentially stating the opposite of this Wyz? I seem to remember a post by a 'prominent member' of the community saying something to the tune of "if not going to concede and the game is lost try to work on teamwork and do something as a team." I could certainly consider someone saying "well how about we try to lerkball since we have the res but are down to one RT and have been locked in base for the past 2 minutes" counting as fitting within the vein of that previous post... Maybe the point of trying to call stuff like that is not to necessarily win the game and certainly not to "waste time" but instead to do /something/ as a team and maybe have some fun getting kills in the process? The same can be said if marines go for a morale victory by shooting down 1 of 3 hives via a ninja phase or last ditch JP rush. I get if there are only 3 ppl participating in the rushes then its going to be a waste of time but shouldn't the other team also realize that and exploit a weakness? For example, regardless of team, if its 1 tech point versus 3 and the losing team rushes one of your 3 tech points...just go kill theirs instead of defending...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

            I'm all for doing stuff at end game.

            My main argument is to not champion such efforts by implying that there's no cost to those efforts. There is. They take time.

            Some such pushes are worth the cost. But there's certainly cost.
            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

              I'm made similar complaints before, wherein folks who just want to practice propose pushes via hopes the push will win the game. That seems folly to me.

              If we want to practice, let's practice. But let's not worry, at that point, about winning the game.

              I guess my point is "say what you mean". And, to my original post, when someone's /saying/ there's no cost to these end-game antics, I question that.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                I don't really have a problem with a team reluctantly agreeing to try a strategy that has a low probability of success. Not only do I think there's little "cost" - I think there's a lot of potential benefit.

                These "high risk, high reward" situations can teach you a lot about, for example, how long it takes 6 lerks to bite down a comm chair. Or how quickly 6 marines with hatchets and cat packs can slash down a hive.

                It's a learning opportunity. A queen sacrifice because you think you see a checkmate opportunity. As a fan of chess, I'd always rather watch someone go down trying to be clever with tactics than tipping their king and shaking hands because they're down a pawn in the middle game.

                This isn't to say that every attempt to come back from a losing game is worth spending time on... you wouldn't box your king in with all your pieces and "turtle" in a game of chess, because that would mean you're not even trying to win - you're just trying to delay losing. But if there's a wacky strategy that includes a scenario in which you could win, it stands to reason that some people will want to try it before conceding.

                I'm reminded of a captains game we played a few weeks ago on Veil in which marines were pushed out of Control and had to relocate to Pipeline very early. Wyz, you were very disheartened at the situation as Marine commander - and didn't want to "waste time" playing the game out... but how often do you get to see such a dynamic game unfold? Marines in Pipeline and not Control? Aliens only in Sub Sector? That sounds like a fantastic learning experience to me.

                Interestingly enough, I also happen to be someone that votes to concede early and often. I take a lot of heat for it sometimes. It's typically done as an indication to my team that "I'm not satisfied with how the game is going. Are you?" - And I start a concede vote. I've found this gets the team talking. Some people disagree: "WHAT?!?! WE HAVE FOUR RT's! WHY WOULD YOU CONCEDE?" Other people start to offer dynamic alternatives to conceding: "Let me just get this Gorge tunnel up and we can rush their main." In any event, it keeps the discussion going and it can prompt the team to either double-down, or to try something out of left field... or sometimes to just give up and concede if no one is in the mood to continue the game. Either way, I consider it progress.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                  This is a very long thread about semantics. Let's cut through the noise a bit, if I may:

                  - The semantic problem is there, Wyz is correct and sound. That really shouldn't be up for debate.
                  - The cultural/morale effect of this is mostly minimal. This is cultural premature optimization, but this does not make it not optimization (god I love TGNS for this sort of thing).
                  - The cost in time is real and measurable. This shouldn't be up for debate either (in fact, Wyz mentioned that if you ENJOY these things, great, express it as such, he's happy to go along for that ride).
                  - If all we're doing here is debating the value of hail mary's, we're not discussing the reason Wyz brought this up. Hail mary's have value, and if you don't believe this, you are mostly missing the joy of TGNS (maybe spectate more?)
                  - If we want to get oversensitive about semantics, let's save time: Wyz is correct, adjust your phrasing to something like, "I would like to try..." or "I would like to see how X plays out, who's with me?" and move on. Debating why you shouldn't have to is silly. Adjust to improve, or just don't. You get to both choose and endure the effects of that choice.

                  You're just wasting a lot of hot air if you're going to push further on this thread. Discussing the merits of specific tactics is probably useful, but discussing the merits of an entire genre of tactics is just going to be silly.

                  I'd also point out this thread just took more time from me than it will likely save me next week. I'm not bitter or anything, trust me, but it's a hilarious irony I'm giggling a bit about at the moment. =c)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                    If you're suggesting that last-ditch rushes in a doomed game are a waste of time I disagree. If anything I think it improves morale to have tried it rather than surrendering with a whimper. But yes it would be nice if people could argue for it with more enthusiasm and be more active about making it happen. Especially comms, who in general I wish were more active in coordinating the team 90% of the time anyway. If you're commanding and you find your players are often the ones trying to organize grassroots initiatives like this, that's probably an indication that you're not doing it often enough yourself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                      Tod captured my meaning. Wasteful or not, the rushes are cost-measurable in /time/. They have a /cost/ for anyone with limited time. You'd think that obvious, but not so based on what I've too often observed.

                      OP isn't objecting to folks finding value in rushes I find wasteful, but rather to overlooking the /cost/, whatever the value.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                        The cultural/morale effect of this is mostly minimal.
                        I'd beg to differ. I find a great... oppressive feeling when my team gives up too early. Not only have I been the center of mockery in the server in these situations of late, but I've also seen a trend leaning on the side of "there's no chance, let's quit." A few nights ago, a select group of "newcomers" found it entertaining to verbally mock my effort to continue a game that was mostly lost.

                        I think we have lost a fundamental grasp of what TGNS is, and I think the newer people in the server never really got it.

                        It bothers me to a certain extent to see these people with A's beside their name, but that's another story.

                        I think Wyz's original thought, months ago, is right; that if one person wants to continue, the team has to appreciate that and, unless a majority can be found while conceding, has to do so in a respectful manner.

                        It's easy to feel like a majority when the people who support your idea number greater than the people who do not, but in TGNS this is not always the case, and it is important to fall back on our original values when these situations arise.

                        Mom
                        Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                        Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                        You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                        Forever Perplexed

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                        • #13
                          Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                          I think the idea of grouping together at the end of the game and doing one last push comes at a cost of wasting a few minutes just to try something that is often futile as far as winning goes. That said, I've really noticed a downgrade of teamwork on the server. I'm not sure if it is because I am just losing my ability to direct people when commanding, if people are using their mics less, or if it's due to the influx of rookies, but I feel like anything that encourages teamwork, at the expense of wasting a few minutes is a good thing.

                          I'd rather lose as a team than win as an individual player.
                          HaX^

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                            Originally posted by TodPunk View Post
                            This is a very long thread about semantics. Let's cut through the noise a bit, if I may:

                            - The semantic problem is there, Wyz is correct and sound. That really shouldn't be up for debate.
                            - The cultural/morale effect of this is mostly minimal. This is cultural premature optimization, but this does not make it not optimization (god I love TGNS for this sort of thing).
                            - The cost in time is real and measurable. This shouldn't be up for debate either (in fact, Wyz mentioned that if you ENJOY these things, great, express it as such, he's happy to go along for that ride).
                            - If all we're doing here is debating the value of hail mary's, we're not discussing the reason Wyz brought this up. Hail mary's have value, and if you don't believe this, you are mostly missing the joy of TGNS (maybe spectate more?)
                            - If we want to get oversensitive about semantics, let's save time: Wyz is correct, adjust your phrasing to something like, "I would like to try..." or "I would like to see how X plays out, who's with me?" and move on. Debating why you shouldn't have to is silly. Adjust to improve, or just don't. You get to both choose and endure the effects of that choice.

                            You're just wasting a lot of hot air if you're going to push further on this thread. Discussing the merits of specific tactics is probably useful, but discussing the merits of an entire genre of tactics is just going to be silly.

                            I'd also point out this thread just took more time from me than it will likely save me next week. I'm not bitter or anything, trust me, but it's a hilarious irony I'm giggling a bit about at the moment. =c)
                            Please don't make this thread about me...



















                            I had to, sorry.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "might as well", "can't hurt", etc

                              lol /thread
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment

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