Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

silent and secure WinOrLose voting

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • silent and secure WinOrLose voting

    I used to regularly say "I'm ready to surrender whenever you guys are." I've stopped that, expressing it instead with a silent vote, trying to reserve during-game voicecomm exclusively for those still trying (which should include me, until enough votes happen concurrently). Beyond my silent vote, I'm trying to abandon vote-soliciting voicecomm, reserving that energy for uninterrupted gameplay, including other play-related voicecomm, until play actually ends.

    Here are some other phrases which, like my recently abandoned phrase above, add nothing more than my silent vote:

    "well, we tried guys" (of course we tried... plus: game's not over -- I'll try to save consolations until the game's over)

    "well, good game guys [ -- it's over]", "we're done", etc... (the game's not over just because I've decided we've lost)

    "Unless someone has some better ideas, I think we're done, guys" (alternative, while still trying and silently voting: 'anyone have any new ideas?')

    this one is sooo tempting -----> "Just one more vote, guys" (everyone can see the vote count; alternative: 'SoAndSoWhoIsNotVoting, do you have any new ideas?')

    I think we've heard countless variants. These /outward/ voicecomms have the sound of someone trying to /inwardly/ raise his security in his own vote. I imagine the subconscious mind rationalizing... "I need to tell why quitting is reasonable so /they/ don't think I'm a 'quitter'...", or "I need /them/ to vote, TOO, so I'm not alone in voting...". Let's suppress that insecure noise. Let's be silent and secure, let's just vote, and let's keep trying until the game's over.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

    When I cast the first vote I almost always follow it up with "let's try ..."; but there are other times when the game has been going on for 5 minutes with no one working together and making absolutely zero headway, and those are the times when I start telling people we should be conceding. Especially the "just one more" case seems important when people can't seem to figure out how to vote, or realize that the majority of the team already wants to give up. I wouldn't suggest lowering the limit because I think it works well where it is, and many votes have actually failed at 5/6 and the game has gone on to turn around... but only when someone speaks up and offers leadership at that point.
    remi.D

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

      I hope to garner discussion on this, and no one's ire.

      I agree discussing the fact that people need to vote, verbally showing you've given up before the team has successfully voted concede, or complaining about the game while it is in progress in any way is a bad thing.

      However, last night I didn't take issue with a few people's comments about the game. Some said gg before the end of the game because, irregardless of the vote's outcome, it was over. And it was friendly banter. Some congratulating the team on the attempt. I often do it before the game's "officially" over, yet we haven't seen its end. Heck, I DON'T start a concede if the other team is moving in for the finish, because I personally feel some games they've earned the kill.

      On another map, there was genuine conversation about whether to concede that LED to someone speaking up and suggesting an idea. It failed, but we all tried it BECAUSE of the initial conversation.

      On many games people speak freely about the game's current status, and what benchmarks, if any, we need to achieve to make it worth continuing. On others, no discussion is had, and the game is voted silently. Sometimes great conversations are had about what we could have done, and on others, people harp (myself included at times) on the failures. Some of it is useful, others (the harping) is not. But the vast majority is just good conversation. It's a game, not all business, and as a game, I like discussing success AND failures of the round asit appears. Sometimes an early game mishap can be corrected by explaining in game the transition. Other times, it's simply an example for future games.

      Waiting for the ready room isn't always best, because you have end game banter and both teams occupying the mics. And I'd rather it not be pushed to IMs, it's fun to hear people's perspectives.

      I know when it's been massively demonstrated we're outmatched, I've said "let's concede in time to get another round going. I really like this map". I don't see that as a problem. Someone mentions an idea, or there's consensus and we get another round going. Alternatively, someone may start a concede because they've died 5x right outside base by two marines blocking the lane, but not be aware that their team has completely obliterated the marines' resources, and the game is really in their favor. Alternatively, one person may be trying to hold out without the knowledge that all the aliens have lost their higher lifeforms,and a comeback is highly unlinkely. Simple statements here and there, and LIGHT conversation correct that. Not debate. Not a continuous battle that consumes the game, but quick perspective.

      In the task to remove the battle and debate, we're also throwing out the perspective and tactical conversation. Not directly, but as more people fell they're allowed ot say less, the conversations get shorter and quieter.

      In the presence of some people, the server grows eerily silent and people walk on eggshells. It happened last night. I left the server because the discussion shifted in a way that made me feel uncomfortable, and unfriendly. And I ended up in a 10 minute conversation with someone else who left for the same reason feeling personally attacked. I sided with the server's admins, trying to state the end game intent of the ruleset, but agreeing it was definitely not the most prudent approach. I recommended they speak up as well. No offense meant at all, I definitely understand the reasoning, but I think it's starting to stifle light-hearted conversation.

      Heck, it could be said my reaction is directly driven by the point the above statements find me in guilt. I'm ok with that. And I'll abide by whatever rules the community sets. But I feel that simple conversation shouldn't be stifled for fear of where it leads. I've heard many a P,G, and A say in server to change the rhetoric if and when the conversation sours. And it doesn't kill the server's atmosphere to do it.

      My $.02.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

        You agree that verbally giving up before the game's over "in any way" is a bad thing, you didn't take issue last night with some people doing that, and you asked folks to concede because you wanted another game. This kind of inconsistency is why I'm advocating for silence. Each of us selfishly rationalizing and giving personalized sales pitches for the concede doesn't /scale/. When each of us does it, it seems reasonable. When a few or all of us do it, it's voicecomm dogs and cats living together. It's a huge disservice to those still wanting to play the current game.

        Our need to postmortem before the game's over? It seriously can wait the 25 seconds it takes to pull off a successful vote, and enough of it can happen in the 40 seconds of countdown that follows. If it takes longer than 25 seconds to make a successful vote, the "game's over" premise is unfounded in the eyes of multiple teammates. If it takes longer than 40 seconds to postmortem, there are ample other opportunities that are less disruptive to gameplay.

        Discussing how we can continue to fight is not postmortem. I'm convinced some people who feel they're being oppressed genuinely struggle to tell the difference.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

          However you prefer, then.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

            One thing is and always will be true in TGNS, or so I've found:

            We are always asking people to do the exact opposite of what everyone does on the interwebs.

            It's a uphill battle every single time, and more often than not we have to pick our struggles. I think this is one of those times. Agreeing that comments that are diminutive to morale should not be allowed is one thing. Actually enforcing that is another. More often than not, without the presence of an actual admin, this kind of behavior is looked over by guardians. We normally have to pick our fights too, especially when trying to seed the server. It's difficult to maintain a balance that says "come play with us" as well as "please don't be everything you've learned up until this point" while trying to develop a personal relationship.

            What I've found from being a parent is that the rules that I give myself for my kids often apply and succeed to adults in the real world. The number one rule is this:

            If you say something, do it. No matter what it is. If I run off at the mouth and say I'm going to drop kick my kid if he does X again, then I drop kick him. I feel bad, and CPS gets called and I lose my baby, but that baby now knows that daddy don't play no games when it comes to X infraction.

            The same thing is true about this and every other rule at TGNS.

            I think we need to have a list that says, "If you do X, you get X," and then a rule that says, "If you are a guardian and you witness X and do not do X, then you get X punishment yourself." Because, really... why do we have guardians if we have these problems? I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I'm not perfect because I know it's something I don't /have/ to do. I don't try because it's not enforced for me to do my job. I just get a fancy A and I make a minimal effort to make sure that people don't offend or degrade or etc... but when it comes to these fringe rules, no one is going to enforce them without some sort of enforcement for the enforcer, if you will.

            Making sense here?

            I suppose I should say "standard" rather than "rule". "Expectation" is another word, too. We don't really have a lot of rules as much as we have expectations from our fellow gamers.

            In NS1... late in our gaming there... we passed out holey boots left and right, and didn't think twice about it. This wasn't just core admin, but "guardians" as well. There was no discussion, there was no "OMG GAIZ HE KICKED ME CUZ HE SUCKS"... it was, "do as we expect of you, or go elsewhere." I feel like we're to the point that this kind of capital punishment is acceptable because we have enough people to populate our servers... it sucks, and it may ruin the game... but if the Fade is flying around going "EFF this" and "racial slur that" then... bye Fade. The same is true for people who cannot be bothered to take into account their coplayers morale. Bob may hate his life, but Sally may be enjoying flying around as a Lerk, even if the game isn't going so well. I feel like Sally has more of a right to play than Bob does to run his mouth about it, so Bob should be shut down immediately. This is where we lack in action. "Bob, stop. That's not allowed here." "BLAH BLAH I'M BOB" "Bye Bob." *Bob has been kicked*.

            Instead, we're much more like, "Bob, stop please. Other people may want to play still" "BLAH BLAH I'M BOB" "Bob, seriously man. *witty comment from Wyzcrak*" "BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOB " "Bob, I'm going to have to kick you" "RAWWWWRRR BOBCAKES!" *Bob has been kicked*.... Or, at least this is how I see it.

            Mom
            Last edited by YerMom; 11-18-2014, 09:45 PM. Reason: let it be known that the long O word is a really long and powerful BOB, not a very large and attractive boob...
            Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
            Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

            You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
            Forever Perplexed

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

              Full admins have to pick battles, too. And writing everything down doesn't scale.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                Don't put as much stock in my "let's make these guidelines" as you do the idea we should enforce our principles more than we do. I'm interested in seeing more "you have to do this or we'll engage in corrective behavior" on a global scale. I don't want to be all SS on the server... but, I feel like we've got all these social issues that are largely happening because people don't really feel like they /can't/ do things. I mean, I could walk in and f-bomb the server for the next half hour before anyone really did anything to me, if they did at all. There's a difference in being lax and enabling behavior.

                Mom
                Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                Forever Perplexed

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                  YerMom, while this is really an issue for another thread, I do have to chime in and say I disagree with the sentiment I'm getting from your posts. I feel like the balance we have of maintaining a mature environment while allowing people to have an enjoyable experience rather than be in fear of getting kicked or banned from a slip of the tounge, or even a deliberate moment of venting in frustration is in a pretty good place.



                  As for the silent vs vocal method of conceding, I really don't have a concrete opinion on which method should be used and will try to go along with whatever is decided. Some games I would agree that being quiet and just playing might be best, but in others I would really want to be advocating to just having it end.


                  But, I do try to (especially if I'm the commander) to lead the team towards goals I think may help turn the game around for a few minutes before I just give up entirely, concede every chance I get, and go through the motions until the game ends.
                  aka Roland tHTG

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                    I'm not, by any means, saying we adopt a totalitarian ideology in the server.

                    I just feel like we're entirely too lax when trying to adjust behaviors of regulars. I'm not saying boot every person who drops an f bomb, but... I think we all see the excessive and realize it's excessive... and we all kinda just sit there going, "uhm....". I was about to type, "I think if you're a guardian," but, I don't /think/ it... it is a rule. If you are a guardian, it is your responsibility to drop what you are doing, regardless of what it is, and handle the infraction. Handle meaning whatever is applicable at the time. So, kick the guy? Maybe not. Depends on the situation, but nevertheless, stop and take care of it. This, I think, is where we are lacking, and I'll be the first to admit my guilt in this department as well.

                    And I disagree that this is an issue for another thread as well. I keep seeing these "we should and shouldn't" threads, and while they are useful, they really don't find a home in most cases. Granted, I haven't played a lot lately, but from the time that I did play, it seems more often than not.. if an admin is not there, these things do not matter. That's not ALWAYS true, but more often than not.

                    So, it's kinda like warning me the stove is hot when the stove isn't plugged in. Maybe it should be in another thread, I dunno... but, I think, assuming that the nature of the server when the big names aren't around is still the same, these kinds of posts are dodging a larger issue. Forgive me if things have changed in my stead.

                    Mom
                    Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                    Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                    You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                    Forever Perplexed

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                      I will advocate caution in adjusting the direction of all silence on the subject of conceding. I say this for a couple reasons, but it's important to note here that the sentiment of holding onto morale is important, and the real answer to the problem may be somewhere in between the "all" and the "nothing," as truth often is.

                      A) We're trying to encourage communication. Rather than stifle all discussion of conceding, perhaps the right approach might be to brand it better, to make it more tactical and strategic than a morale discussion or whining. I was attempting this myself tonight, rather than focusing on "it's over" I attempted (I wasn't perfect at it) to say things like, "we need more map, guys" or "I can't drop a hive and that's our next goal, how can we make that happen?" Tone is lost in this text, but it was pretty damning as a statement, because everyone knew were weren't going to do either of these things. I think there's room for improvement for me here.

                      B) Two games tonight I spent half an hour in a game that was decided 2 minutes in when a third of the team is goofing off across the map instead of, well, being a team, and in several regulars' attempts to implement the silence tactic, those unaware of what was going on weren't going to conceded. They were happily doing whatever it was they were doing, they didn't have a sense of it being over (this isn't up for interpretation in this case, it was over. We had a hive, the node in the hive, and nothing else, while they held our base). Often times the reason a game is lost is specifically because a good portion of the team isn't playing it. If communicating to them about the facts is going to kill morale, well, maybe that's appropriate without having to be childish in the expression thereof.

                      Again, the point here is we probably need more nuance, focus on tactics rather than ultimatums or states of the union. Canning all discussion is overcompensating for the problem we're trying to address. I'd rather overcompensate than not do anything, but I'd rather adjust appropriately than too much.

                      I also agree with YerMom that we don't have enough focus on community building and culture enforcement. This whole conceding discussion likely wouldn't be a problem if we were helping people meet the higher standards we advocate for. I don't see it nearly as much on captain's nights for instance, where the crew involved is typically a more ingrained-with-our-culture bunch. So the conceding discussion is likely an issue in adjunct to culture forming. I will disagree with YerMom in that I don't think this is an administration problem, it is a leadership problem, and guardian/admin status has nothing to do with that. Any of us can step up to the plate of helping the community grow in quality with our stated values. If we have to enforce a rule that's one way that does require some rank I suppose, but if there were no admins and 5 regulars were all saying, "woah, let's please keep it a little higher quality than that here, please, we like to make it a mature place" then that person is going to know it's not someone picking a fight, it is the social rule of order.

                      We all need to up our game in a lot of ways, I suppose. We've been getting lax, myself included, and while I'm sorry for my part, I think the answer is working together toward a goal on the right path rather than trying to eliminate a darker path we've been walking on a bit too much.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                        To (I think) repeat myself: I'm really wanting silence mostly because the simple act of voting adequately and silently expresses what was otherwise being said ("we're done, guys", "gg everybody", "well, we tried", "yeah, this is over", <postmortem analysis before game's over>, etc, etc). I don't want to squelch actual efforts to collaborate or lead ("guys, how can we take more map", "guys, what can we do given how far away JPs are?", "who can help me drop what we're doing and pinch one of two of these lifeforms that are crushing us over and over again?" -- notice how different these sound than the first parenthetical examples? these aren't expressions toward defeat, as is the silent vote).

                        Your scenario wherein teammates were seemingly oblivious to the vote? Ask them by name where they want to take the strat or tactics. Whatever their position on the team, challenge them by name to innovate/lead. Often, regulars silently "oblivious" to the vote that's just one or two short are just scared and socially locking up. Watch for the folks that reliably notice and react to similar text during similar battles/etc. They're all too aware of these concede votes, they're just not sure how to defend their wanting to continue when 1) they realize the game's over and 2) want to keep playing regardless. Challenge them to lead the game, even if only with a sentence. Most of the time, you're going to get one of the two following responses: 1) they'll immediately vote or 2) they'll pleasantly surprise all of us with innovation and/or leadership (in which case: let's do /that/).

                        If I've /attempted/ the silent vote(s), /and/ I have "oblivious" teammates, /and/ they've come back with /nothing/ when challenged to lead (notice how different this is than "guys, press M and Surrender..."), /aaaaaaand/ they haven't gotten the hint that clearlylosing+stratbankruptcy=surrendervote, then explicit (and even repeated!) requests for concede votes seems fair. But voicecomm vote requests, direct ("guys, press M and Surrender...") or indirect ("well, gg guys, we tried"), seem most appropriate to me only following a simple silent vote or two while full-on gameplay continues.

                        Again: /do/ speak of what to /do/, but don't speak about why the game's /finished/. To tell the difference is not that hard once we apply ourselves.
                        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                          After watching this for a couple weeks, I think I'd have to tend to agree. The "lets concede, we're not coming back" really doesn't do anything beyond distract from the game. It seems like most of the time the comment comes as justification for their vote, not because the game has dragged on so long and is obviously over.

                          I've been frustrated a few times with people not voting to concede, but normally within a minute or so the rest of the people holding out follow suit without any prompting (maybe on their next death, I don't know).

                          Every once in a while I feel I should mention "a new vote has started" to prompt the people who had voted previously to do so again, but all in all I'm liking the silent concede a lot more.
                          remi.D

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                            How about "one more to finish this concede vote" when it's 4/5 and we're clearly losing?

                            There seems to be this trend in practice that basically says, "we're losing, a few guys are conceding, buuuuuut let me just kill this one last guy" or something that like... its like we can't quite finish that vote while we all know it needs to be finished.

                            I'm all for trying to continue if we have enough reason to, but I think once the concede vote is 4/5 or 5/6 or whatever, morale is destroyed enough that anything short of an uplifting victory somewhere on the map is a waste of time. I'm comfortable, personally, reaching for that last vote in a respectable way.

                            Thoughts?

                            Mom
                            Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                            Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                            You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                            Forever Perplexed

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: silent and secure WinOrLose voting

                              Sure, but let one or two one-vote-short votes silently fail first.

                              Give the silent vote a chance first. In the (short) meantime, just keep trying.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X