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  • ns2_eclipse

    This map is beautiful. I think we all want to play it. But I think we all see it the same way. It's really, really, /really/ hard for Marines to get a foothold on this map. It's not impossible, but it lacks that early game balance that a lot of other maps have.

    I've been considering for some time making very minor changes to the map to help facilitate this. I'd like to open that up for you guys to discuss at this point.

    Changes in mind:

    Access Alpha needs to be made a little more Marine friendly. <- The little crevices on the side of this node, plus the vent access around it, allow for Aliens to control this node too easily. It's pretty much the only given node for Marines and it's too hard for them to hold. http://i.imgur.com/aYFRJjE.jpg

    Triad needs to be a little less Alien friendly <- The giant columns in that room (shown here on the Triad picture Return to Eclipse in Natural Selection 2) make the room a little to Alien friendly.

    Horseshoe needs to have the node moved closer to Marine Start <- As it stands, that node is too far away from Marine start to balance the early game.

    Possible solutions:

    Make spawns random. <- To do this, I'll have to rework some of the geo in Marine Start to allow for a hive to fit on the tech point. This will likely be the easiest solution. All I'll have to do is extrude the ceiling (hopefully) and move the node from Horseshoe a little closer.

    Move nodes closer, close some vents <- Another solution would be to rework Triad to make it more friendly for Marines, move Keyhole closer, and put in the minor geo work to make Access Alpha more friendly to Marines. This will take more work, but should prove to make the map more balanced.

    Obviously any of these changes may require more work than I see right now, but I know for a fact that with minimal work, we can get this map comfortable for all players.

    So, I've created a poll here. Vote yes or no, and leave a comment. You can leave a suggestion for change if you want, or you can give your reason for a no vote. Whatever you want to do.

    Discussion, Consideration:

    Return to Eclipse in Natural Selection 2 - Page 4 - Unknown Worlds Entertainment <- NS2 forum discussion on Eclispe (dead since January)

    Originally posted by Jonacrab
    Considering that the vast majority of our map testing group are premier division players, and most of the testing turned out marine favored, your suggestion that marines wont be able to do anything is not accurate.
    I think that because the map testing group was comprised of Premier Division players... the data was skewed to the Marine side. If every player on Marines played like Retraced or some of the other big names, then... sure, map would seem Marine sided. Coming from Tanith, I know that I have to get a lot of data from a lot of different random teams to build a map that will play well for everyone.

    Let me know.

    Mom
    8
    Leave it.
    50.00%
    4
    Change it
    50.00%
    4
    Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
    Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

    You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
    Forever Perplexed

  • #2
    Re: ns2_eclipse

    is the map maker active and working on this map?

    If you do make changes, im not sure it needs random spawns. veil plays like it did in ns1 with a fixed spawn. though i'm sure there may be plenty of arguments for it but it might be nice to have another map like that. also sometimes allowing aliens to spawn in marine start makes more problems than it fixes

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: ns2_eclipse

      Eclipse took advantage of me emotionally. It lied to me. I'm just not sure I can stand being hurt again.

      Maybe VERY small changes at a time. Starting with moving Keyhole node closer to Marine Spawn.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: ns2_eclipse

        jack^ - I don't know. Needless to say, the map has been in rotation for some time, and it hasn't been changed. It's an official map, so my guess is that it may be changed in a patch, and it may not be. I think the vast majority of the community has given up on it.

        That said, I'm looking at this from our perspective. Honestly, every other server I've ever joined (ns1 and ns2) is, largely, full of trolls I wouldn't think twice about. TGNS is different. So, everything I do, I do because I can't give back in a monetary way for the time being, and also because a lot of the guys here (not just in TGNS) have given to me without thinking twice. So, to be blunt, I don't really care if the map maker is still active on this or any other map. If we decide that we want a better working version of a map (which is open source and free to edit as we please) then that's where I'll go. I'm working for you guys, not for myself or the rest of the community.

        Wyz - I plan on taking very, very small... like infant gecko baby steps... or larva steps... something in the centimeter section of reality here. The map isn't terrible. It just needs a bit of a boost to Marines early game, and we should start to see some pretty epic games.

        Mom
        Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
        Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

        You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
        Forever Perplexed

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: ns2_eclipse

          I was kinda surprised the poll wasn't leave it or remove it.

          I honestly wouldn't bother taking the time to do any changes because usually when I see it get voted in the server is less than half primer signers and having a custom eclipse would likely just alienate and confuse strangers.
          aka Roland tHTG

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: ns2_eclipse

            Something that came as a shock to me was that the vast majority of NS2 outside TGNS, or so it seems, is accustomed to a ns2_veil that has the extra hallway from Skylights to West Access.

            I think it's safe to say that a ns2_tgns_eclipse (or insert naming convention here) is going to, more or less, explain the map isn't the norm. And the minor changes I'm talking about aren't really going to change the map that much at all. If we decide to go so far as to enforce random spawns and change major geo that way, then sure... but simply restructuring some res and changing a bit of geo in the right areas should suffice to be understandable by the majority of strangers while also providing that much needed early balance.

            I see where you're going with that, though, and trust me... if the small changes I'm talking about don't solve the problem, then I'm not going any further. I should have specified that. I'm not planning any sort of overhaul to Eclipse. The (minor side) changes I'm thinking about would take a couple hours, tops.

            At the VERY MOST... a lot of the map seems to force Marines to commit to a room before they can tell what is in it... this percentage should be lower, like 30 to 40 percent. It seems the map has about 50 to 60 percent in this case. So, I may touch each room to make changes here to help balance Marines in that perspective, but (short of major geo changes to provide random spawns) I'm not going any further than that. Anything like "rebuild comp core" or "t junction needs a double" or any craziness like that is an immediate and strict "no" in my book.

            Mom
            Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
            Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

            You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
            Forever Perplexed

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: ns2_eclipse

              like roland said a custom eclipse will probably shock players who aren't aware. but i think with the tgns_ name it should help distinguish itself.

              Either way i don't think a name is a reason to hold back. i agree with wyz, eclipse holds a lot of ns1 nostalgia. I would be interesting in seeing small changes at a time. starting with the subtler changes. beginning with moving res nodes before getting into any map changes to a room. honestly i'd like to see how the map plays with just moving keyhole/horseshoe node. I can't begin to say i know much about balancing maps but that's the largest stand out to me right now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: ns2_eclipse

                The map is largely balanced when it comes to geo... aside from some LOS concerns. The issue, mainly, is Marine ability to hold res early game. They just can't get a solid foothold. It's hard enough as A1/W1 Marines to get a solid hold on the map without some epic gunner... put res a bit too far away or a bit unbalanced, and you're in a situation that we see every time we play Eclipse.

                So, I think I'm going to proceed with changes on the map. A lot of people haven't voted, but I'm not sure really how much more we can expect from that vote. I haven't voted yet, and if I were to, it'd be 4 to 1. I think that shows enough of a majority... especially with over 100 views already.





                So... where I'm going to start:

                I'm going to pull Keyhole closer to Marines.
                --> This may not be perfect as it starts... doesn't look like there's really a room for it, but I'll see. So, it may not be fully balanced, but I think we need to see how it plays with that node closer.

                I'm going to look at removing the columns in Triad.
                --> As some of you may recall, the biggest play point for this room in NS1 was that Marines could shoot down on the node from above. I'm going to try to restore that so as to allow Marines to control it easier. I'll get creative and
                --> see where I end up.

                What I am thinking about, but am not doing yet:

                I'd like to see about limiting some of the access Aliens have to Access Alpha.
                --> This area is just too easily hit by them. It, more often than not, is down and I think it is a combination of easy access and lack of focus from Marines. I'd like to see if I can create a bit more of a balance here.

                I'd like to see about closing some of the lower level of Maintenance as you enter the hive.
                --> This played well in NS1, but in NS2 it just makes the entire room seem massive. I think it benefits Aliens that, should a Marine fall, they have a longer, harder route into the hive. I'm thinking about closing off most of it with some sort of screen or grating so that you can still see and move down there, but any Marine that may fall off the path can just hop back up. Something like that, anyway. And, this is a very distant consideration.

                If you guys have any other suggestions or considerations, let me know.

                Continue to vote. Just because I decide to go forward with this doesn't mean the community has decided to run it. If I put a week into it, and the vote is 3 yes 9 no, then democracy has prevailed. That doesn't mean my time is wasted. We may throw the map up to see what people think even after voting and maybe you guys will want to change your votes. I just put the poll up to see if there was enough interest for me to even begin.

                Thanks guys.

                Mom
                Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                Forever Perplexed

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: ns2_eclipse

                  ns2_tgns_eclipse is live.

                  Steam Workshop :: ns2_tgns_eclipse

                  Changes from original:

                  The node in Keyhole has been moved closer to Marine spawn. This should prove to play better, even if Aliens spawn Maintenance. I think it will balance out because Aliens are more mobile.
                  Removed the generator column closest to Marine spawn in Triad so that Marines can see the node in Triad from the ledge.

                  Mom
                  Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                  Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                  You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                  Forever Perplexed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: ns2_eclipse

                    sounds like a good idea to me

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: ns2_eclipse

                      [MENTION=38]Wyzcrak[/MENTION] - can we have this added to the rotation and maybe take normal eclipse out?

                      Mom
                      Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                      Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                      You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                      Forever Perplexed

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: ns2_eclipse

                        I'll add it to the server (and announce here). I'll not add it to the map votes until it's played a few times with positive results. I'm not sure if we'll remove the stock offering from map votes when we add this one.
                        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: ns2_eclipse

                          Works for me. My concern is that they are, put into a percentage, about 1% different from each other. So, leaving eclipse in the vote system will cause redundancy.

                          I'm all for testing, but saying we need to test the changes is essentially like saying we need to test the original. The changes are so small right now that I'm not even really sure people will notice anything changed.

                          All up to you though.

                          Mom
                          Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                          Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                          You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                          Forever Perplexed

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: ns2_eclipse

                            Something that came as a shock to me was that the vast majority of NS2 outside TGNS, or so it seems, is accustomed to a ns2_veil that has the extra hallway from Skylights to West Access.

                            Did tgns change veil or something?
                            Who you gonna call?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: ns2_eclipse

                              No, but that's how veil used to be. Right?

                              Comment

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