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  • Captains PreGame

    I wondered if it would be possible to include the alien circle designation (on the scoreboard) for all players in the pool prior to teams being picked. I think it would help captains that are unfamiliar with other players alien strengths during the picking process.

  • #2
    Re: Captains PreGame

    Definitely possible, technically.

    I like the idea because it improves the gameplay not just for the first round, but also the second.

    The idea of being a Captain, though, is that you already have familiarity with the players. But I'm content to set that aside for a moment to consider this idea's possibilities.

    A few design/procedural considerations come to mind.

    The response to "what lifeform(s) can you play" has always been more /dialog/ than one-word answer. It's common that players have multiple strengths and conditional interests. It's very common to have someone who's announced "fade" be changed to something else, but only /after/ discussing that among multiple teammates.

    New Captains are already managing a fair bit of complexity in just navigating the ceremony of the Ready Room procedures and how to interpret the information already on their screen ("wait... these people are.. sorted? Top to bottom, or bottom to top? Oh. OH. Left to right. Got it. Ok. And who's pick is it? Oh, and I'm supposed to say my team name every time I pick a player? Ah. Ok." etc etc), so adding the lifeform considerations would introduce yet additional complexity, including the complication that those pickable players trying to communicate via a single scoreboard icon what traditionally has followed /dialog/ via voicecomm /have/ no access to voicecomm if a Captain needs clarification about anything (as pickable players can't speak during team picks).

    Also, the green Captains text on the right side of the screen is specifically designed to /prevent/ dependency on the scoreboard, which sometimes causes alt-tabbing during voicecomm use (tab+leftalt), visually moves players unexpectedly, and doesn't filter based on who's opted in and who isn't. This idea would bring new value to the scoreboard, but it would ask new Captains already struggling with ceremony and procedure to flip back and forth between two visual tools (which can't render on the screen at the same time) throughout the team picking process.

    Asking Captains to take in more information (and asking pickable players to give it) would raise the complexity and delay of a team-picking process which is commonly plagued by both already, especially when participants are new to their role in it.

    How can we have the best of both? Maybe give the green text more screen real estate and let the information you're thinking about appear in the green text? If we do that, do we give players something more free-form, a la !plan ? Going in the opposite direction, do we make the server smart enough to track which lifeform you've spent the most time playing in, say, the last X weeks? Maybe have this information appear in some automated fashion (this would prevent the additional ceremony/delay of asking 10+ pickable players to do something, and it would prevent Captains sitting around waiting for players to do this, which adds to the delay/confusion).

    To deepen the design considerations, is there potential for this kind of meta-data regarding the marine team? Maybe some kind of K:D or ELO for marines, or something (again, visible only to Captains)?

    Happy to hear from anyone.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      Re: Captains PreGame

      Insofar as I'm allowed to wear a player hat in this discussion, I'll say I'm content with the status quo, but I recognize that contentment sometimes carries unrealized opportunity costs.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: Captains PreGame

        Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
        Maybe give the green text more screen real estate and let the information you're thinking about appear in the green text? If we do that, do we give players something more free-form, a la !plan ? Going in the opposite direction, do we make the server smart enough to track which lifeform you've spent the most time playing in, say, the last X weeks? Maybe have this information appear in some automated fashion (this would prevent the additional ceremony/delay of asking 10+ pickable players to do something, and it would prevent Captains sitting around waiting for players to do this, which adds to the delay/confusion).
        I think this could work. Give the green text more screen space for lifeform badges. Either make those badges be automatically populated as you describe, or let players set them permanently for themselves with a console command. You might just let everyone see the lifeform badges so that 1) everyone knows what lifeforms they are being associated with and 2) everyone has an additional opportunity to learn everyone else's preferred lifeforms.

        Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
        To deepen the design considerations, is there potential for this kind of meta-data regarding the marine team? Maybe some kind of K:D or ELO for marines, or something (again, visible only to Captains)?
        Potential? Certainly. Maybe in addition to the orange alien lifeform/hive badges, there can be a blue marine command chair badge indicating the player is comfortable/willing to command on marines. I don't think K:D or ELO numbers need to be shown since the list is already sorted by hive score and there would be enough to look at already with as many as 6 badges next to each player name.
        Last edited by Wyzcrak; 10-20-2015, 01:53 PM. Reason: disabled smilies so K:D renders correctly

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        • #5
          Re: Captains PreGame

          The more I think about it, the automatic information display will best meet the spirit of mirage's idea: give the Captains more information about what each player's competitive offering. I think the hive score integration is helpful in that it "appears" automatically and the Captains silently/immediately choose what influence, if any, it has on their picks.


          [MENTION=54909]miragezors[/MENTION], what if I tracked 5 pieces of information for each player for every game:

          ) gorge frequency
          ) lerk frequency
          ) fade frequency
          ) onos frequency
          ) Commander frequency

          And then somehow enhanced the Captains team-picking display to communicate to Captains which roles each player has spent time in "recently"?
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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          • #6
            Re: Captains PreGame

            Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
            ) Commander frequency
            You really should split that out into Commander and Kamm frequency. Or you hit people like me that frequently alien Kamm, when what the picker really cares about is Marine comms that is far more rarer then alien Kamms.
            Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

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            • #7
              Re: Captains PreGame

              There are so many ways to put this together. Suggestion:

              Lay out all icons (gorge / lerk / fade / onos / khamm / comm) in a grid/table format to the right or left of each column of player names. All icons exist for every player, but with variable opacity depending on how much time the player was known to use the lifeform or command structure in recent months. Someone who regularly plays all alien lifeforms would have a lot of partially visible icons. Someone who only plays Onos would have a strongly opaque onos icon, with mostly or completely transparent icons everywhere else. Wyzcrak's two commander icons would be strong enough to burn-in the pixels on your screen. You get what I'm saying. The trick would be tuning it so it accurately represents each player whether they've spent 1 hour or 1000 hours playing on TGNS.

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              • #8
                Re: Captains PreGame

                I don't know if you could change the green text to other colors but you might leave the hive organization as it is so that it covers marine skills. Keep green as people with not enough information gathered, but then have other colors for each life form proficiency; like orange is gorge, yellow is fade, red is lerk, etc with a key located below the pool of players. I know it adds a little complexity to the mix, but I think from a coding aspect it might be easier than adding new icons/pictures.

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                • #9
                  Re: Captains PreGame

                  Each column of players is a single string, with newlines, as I can only have four strings (with newlines) on the screen at once. I can't change colors mid-string, so the colors idea is actually harder to pursue. The silver lining to the "the images are more work" cloud is that they'll be easier for folks to visually consume, I think. The reaction to the visual experience of the scoreboard row lifeform icons has been consistently good.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Captains PreGame

                    Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
                    Each column of players is a single string, with newlines, as I can only have four strings (with newlines) on the screen at once.
                    What kind of ridiculous limitation is that???? :)

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                    • #11
                      Re: Captains PreGame

                      To be clear, nothing is yet /displayed/, but: The server's now /gathering/ from gameplay the historical data I'll need to one day show what (if any) of the following roles you've played recently:

                      ) gorge

                      ) lerk

                      ) fade

                      ) onos

                      ) marine comm

                      ) alien khamm
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Captains PreGame

                        Originally posted by Brian_NS2 View Post
                        All icons exist for every player, but with variable opacity
                        If *if* we go this route, the opacity is derived from a quotient, whose dividend is surely activity-based, but what is the divisor? Is the divisor the same for all players?

                        One possibility: the divisor is X hours. Once you're played X hours in that role in the last Y weeks, your icon is completely opaque. Any time spent in each role beyond X is irrelevant.

                        Another possibility: the divisor is the combined time you've spent as /any/ of the roles, such that none of the role icons would be entirely opaque (unless, perhaps, you've played only as a single one of the roles throughout the given "recent" timespan).

                        There may be other possibilities?

                        Don't mistake my quoting Brian as asking only Brian. Anyone with an idea should pipe up.
                        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Captains PreGame

                          Maybe the divisor is the highest amount of time in that role among all of the players who are opted-in, such that each role's icon opacity is relative to everyone else who's opted in?
                          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Captains PreGame

                            How about a percentage (time played as that lifeform/total time played).
                            HaX^

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                            • #15
                              Re: Captains PreGame

                              Yes. A percentage (a quotient). But what's the divisor? You say "total time played", but /who's/ "total time played"?

                              Come to think of it, maybe "total time played" is wrong? The more I think about it, I think the answer is "whichever opted-in player has the /most/ time" -- so it's not "total" time played, but /most/ time played (by whomever /has/ the most -- in that role). That is, if I'm showing /your/ percentage as COMM, /your/ divisor for /your/ percentage is not based on /your/ activity, but rather on the activity of whomever among the opted-in players has the /most/ time (again, during the "recent" timespan) in that role.

                              So, if you've been a Marine Comm for 3 hours during the "recent" timespan, and no one else has been a Marine Comm for more time than that during the "recent" timespan, then your Marine Comm quotient/percentage is 100 (maybe "100%" appears on the screen... maybe it's a Marine Comm icon that has 100% opacity -- I don't know yet). But BUT.... if you've been a Marine Comm for those same three hours, but another opted-in player has been Marine Comm for 6 hours, then /your/ Marine Comm quotient/percentage is 50 while the other player's is 100 -- they've spent more time recently as a Marine Comm than you have, so you're relatively "weaker" there.

                              [MENTION=54909]miragezors[/MENTION], weigh in on this, because /what/ we display (nevermind how we display it - orange text, transparent icons, whatever) will determine whether or not you get what you want. To be clear, here's what I'm moving toward regarding /what/ I'm showing:

                              I'm showing /time/ spent in a role relative to /other/ opted-in players. I'm /assuming/ that /time/ spent equates to /competitive strength/, and that assumption is that, on average, each of us tends to play where we are competitively strong (if we're weak, competitive forces of gameplay don't allow us much time in the role). Measuring competitive strength via /time/ is imperfect, but it's MUCH less complicated than other measurements ("how many /kills per minute/ has he had as Fade? A gorge? How many tunnels? What's the average lifespan in seconds of his last X tunnels? etc, etc...") -- meanwhile, I think it would be accurate /enough/.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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