Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ideas to improve Win or Lose

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ideas to improve Win or Lose

    I have never been a fan of Win or Lose. The current implementation has issues and could be better. Several of these ideas come from a discussion in this thread.
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/disc...e-mechanics/p1


    What is wrong with the current implementation of win or lose?
    1) It messes with hive skill. If a team has already lost, but ends up winning it tampers with the system. This effects TGNS when we try to balance with the sh_balance command, as I believe it is loosely based on hive skill. It messes moreso with other servers that attempt to shuffle on other servers.
    2) 60 seconds is too long. Most in that thread would of preferred a quicker concede function. They were not TGNS members though. I agree though. I would enjoy having Win or Lose be shorter.
    3) It is confusing. Anytime a non-regular joins it has to be explained. It is even harder to explain with new players to the game because they do not know what is normal.

    #1 I think might be an easy fix. Let the winning team win, no matter what. Just for player satisfaction you might want to show the wrong screen on game end. So the winning team would see a "Marine/Alien Lose" screen even though a win is being reported to hive. The losing team would see a Win screen. This might be a bit confusing if someone actually pays attention to their hive stats page, but I think most do not. If they did, a simple explanation would suffice.

    #2, and to a lesser extent #3, could be improved with a very few changes. Reduce the Win or Lose time to 30 seconds. Give marines a permanent catpack effect until the last hive is dead. That way they move faster, shoot faster, and can get to the hive in time. Give aliens a permanent enzyme effect until the last chair is dead. If catpacks alone are not enough to give the marines enough time to kill the hive, I would then consider giving them a jetpack too. Reduce the time taken away from killing an alien substantially. Maybe only 1 second per alien killed. I would even consider removing the time reduction entirely.

    The catpacks, enzyme, and possibly jetpack would are there to make sure the winning team can kill the hive/chair in 30 seconds. The reason they make it less confusing, as #3 describes, is because the catpack and enzyme have a visual cue further than text on the screen that few people read. The catpack and enzyme effect would clearly show that something has changed.

    A possible way to reduce confusion about Win or Lose would be to make it a separate shine plug in. This would allow other servers to easily use it. If other servers use it, more players will be familiar with it. There is no Guarantee that other servers will use the shine Win or Lose.


    With those suggestions #1 and #2 would be much improved. #3 is a tough one. I have some suggestions that would only slightly improve #3. More ideas are needed though.


    What do you think about my ideas on improving Win or Lose? How could Win or Lose be made less confusing for non regulars?

  • #2
    Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

    I would prefer if it were scrapped honestly. Seems like a waste of time no matter what, and I never really feel any 'satisfaction' from killing the hive or chair in win-or-lose. It's just a chore.

    There's no fun to be had in playing against a team that has given up and wants the game to be over. And there's certainly no fun in playing on a team that has given up.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

      One simple idea is to teleport all players to the last CC/Hive. There's a spawn radius around the tech point used for game start, so the entity is there. Maybe when a WoL is voted, players freeze in place for 2 seconds with a WoL banner, then all players teleport to final CC/Hive. Drop timer to 30 seconds, remove penalty for lifeforms kills, and let nature take it's course.

      This would communicate to all players the point by moving them all there, and if your team wants to wreak havoc on the other players while a choice few kill the Cc/Hive, well, there's more to worry about than social engineering.

      I do agree it's a bit annoying to continually regurgitate the rules and corral the team, and it takes too long. I do, however, enjoy the satisfaction is brings of destroying the CC/Hive instead of a banner declaring me the winner.

      So, teleport all players minus the comm to remaining CC/Hive with current equipment/lifeforms, remove kill penalty, and drop to 30 seconds. Thoughts?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

        Originally posted by rad4Christ View Post
        One simple idea is to teleport all players to the last CC/Hive. There's a spawn radius around the tech point used for game start, so the entity is there. Maybe when a WoL is voted, players freeze in place for 2 seconds with a WoL banner, then all players teleport to final CC/Hive. Drop timer to 30 seconds, remove penalty for lifeforms kills, and let nature take it's course.

        This would communicate to all players the point by moving them all there, and if your team wants to wreak havoc on the other players while a choice few kill the Cc/Hive, well, there's more to worry about than social engineering.

        I do agree it's a bit annoying to continually regurgitate the rules and corral the team, and it takes too long. I do, however, enjoy the satisfaction is brings of destroying the CC/Hive instead of a banner declaring me the winner.

        So, teleport all players minus the comm to remaining CC/Hive with current equipment/lifeforms, remove kill penalty, and drop to 30 seconds. Thoughts?
        I would be equally happy with that as long as the winning team still wins no matter what.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

          OK. Fine. You want to win. All of the above, 25 grenades appear below the tech point and inflict massive damage. Blast radius clears any in room. 5 second countdown after teleport. Now, tech point always dies, and everyone scrambles to escape the carnage.

          Unnecessary. yes. Hilarious and fun. Also yes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

            Haha, I'd prefer that idea to any of the other proposals thus far; anything that keeps it brief. Although I think 25 grenades going off might just crash the server...

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

              The biggest improvement opportunity I see is the confusion.

              The balance argument is uninteresting given that less than 3% of games send modded win/loss info to Hive (and that's despite the confusion -- it would happen even less if the confusion were lessened). Nothing anywhere in NS2 creates such dramatically balanced games that a less-than-3% influence is a significant threat to its quality (sh_balance distributes not only on Hive skill, but also on status of regular and rookie -- so the Hive score, as pure as its influence, is even less relevant).

              The "it takes too long" argument isn't our strongest. It's roughly 30 seconds per game, and a lot of players commonly take value from that time.

              If we halt players' movement, even for a second or two, we'll anger them severely. I think we could give everyone one shot of cat/enzyme -- I agree that the sound/color, combined with the existing on-screen text, would help players understand something new and modded is happening.

              Most importantly: I need a high participant count in this thread. We're talking about changing a long- and widely accepted status quo. Let's get more unsatisfied folks in here.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                I'm not for removing it.

                I am for spicing it up. Not sure how.

                Also not interested in the extra confusion anything new is going to bring, though. We get enough "da f*q is going on".

                Maybe... the person who kills the hive/cc gets a special color on the scoreboard next round... and create badges for people who get X number of win or lose hive kills...
                Or return the ability to clog/structure block and just have the winning team win at the end... so it becomes a mini-game to survive or kill rather than we gotta win or we lose.

                I think the biggest damaging factor here is, for those who would rather have epic hive score for whatever reason I cannot grasp, not killing the hive/cc results in a loss that is not entirely X hive-score-concerned-player's fault.

                Mom
                Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                Forever Perplexed

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                  Right. The Hive( score)'s effect on gameplay isn't nearly compelling enough to go out of our way to prevent such an insignificant influence.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                    I'm also not for removing it. I am fine with explaining it to new players, and I really would rather it be there than an instant win when the other team concedes. i've long maintained it largely boils down to: if the "winning" team actually has their act together, they will win. If not, it's an interesting end to a completely unworthy game in the first place. Give people the satisfaction of ending it if they're winning. I know I prefer it to the alternatives.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                      We could debate which of the WinOrLose-decided games are "unworthy", but both the "worthy" and "unworthy" combine to LESS THAN THREE PERCENT of the games. It's a non-issue, and it becomes even less of an issue if we can lessen the confusion.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                        I am for complete removal of WinOrLose and any other type of end-game mini-game. I don't really care about hive score or the few extra seconds it takes for the game to end (neither reason is compelling), but I would argue that WinOrLose is confusing to new players, and in fact alienates them.

                        Having the mod on TGNS makes the server "weird" and creates extra friction for us to collect regulars, and requires us to explain it to every new player that happens onto the server. If the NS2 community as a whole is growing, we will more regularly have people playing on TGNS who are already overloaded with everything else they need to learn, and don't need to be burdened with one more thing.

                        It's also just not very much fun. It's not doing a good job of making the winning team feel powerful/victorious. I know many people emotionally disconnect the moment WinOrLose activates. I rarely actually hit the chair/hive during WinOrLose. I often alt tab or go build gorge tunnels for marines to hide in, or go kill aliens with a GL so I'm not hurting my team's chances.

                        In League of Legends, when a team loses, everyone's camera goes to their big crystal thing and they get to see it explode. In Overwatch, there is a splash that comes up, music that comes in, the game slows down, and all attention is put on the splash... and then you see the "play of the game". In NS2, you keep running around while a splash appears on your screen, and then you get warped to the readyroom. There is nothing climactic about it all, and nothing that even truly brings attention to the game being finished.

                        I'd rather see TGNS improve that end game experience to make it a more "visceral" one, and not have one team conceding start a mini-game / game-inside-a-game such as WinOrLose.
                        remi.D

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                          I love win or lose and would be disappointed to see it go away. I don't think the "confused new player" scenario is as big of a problem as its made out to be. There is sound, text, and verbal support from the winning team to guide anybody who is confused. It does provide closure to the round rather than an abrupt end to the game, especially if it was a long hard fought battle.

                          That being said, I'm all for testing out new things with it though to spice it up a bit. Perma cat packs/enzyme at concede for the winning team could be interesting. I always thought it would be interesting to have all the powernodes be destroyed across the map if marines winorlose, or have them all automatically rebuild if the aliens winorlose. That may be a more cinematic ending like Remi is suggesting but kept within the existing system.
                          Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
                          Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                            Also for [MENTION=38]Wyzcrak[/MENTION]: To make the server report the concedes to Hive, you would just need to hook the calls to these two functions:
                            Code:
                                       --NS2Gamerules.lua:1122
                                       if winningTeam then
                                            self.sponitor:OnEndMatch(winningTeam)
                                            self.playerRanking:EndGame(winningTeam)
                                        end
                            Or I suppose you could just override it in GUIGameEnd and make it show the opposite splash if WinOrLose time expired. That might be easier.

                            Either way though, it's not heavily complicated to always have the server report to Hive that if your team conceded it is a loss. You may not think it is important (especially at 3% of games), but some of our players do and it is an easy thing to fix.
                            Last edited by blu.knight; 01-04-2016, 12:54 PM.
                            remi.D

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ideas to improve Win or Lose

                              I don't know if this is a typical experience or not, but the first time I played on TGNS and WinOrLose popped up, the goal was clear, but the cause was not immediately apparent. I did not know the other team had conceded to cause it. Once I connected the dots, I found WinOrLose to be a huge improvement over vanilla NS2's handling of a surrender, where gameplay simply ends like a book with the last few pages missing.

                              I want to keep Win Or Lose. It would help, though, if it was more clear to new players what the heck just happened. Maybe instead of immediately showing the full WinOrLose text, it could instead show simply "Aliens have surrendered" for a few seconds at the dead center of the screen, and bring further emphasis to the text by temporarily enabling a shader (like alien vision) that turns the entire game world to grayscale, or muted colors. After a few seconds, the colors should turn back to normal and the usual WinOrLose overlay can appear, already having ticked down a few seconds. What I propose is not to delay the start of the WinOrLose countdown or make WinOrLose last longer, only to delay the normal WinOrLose overlay while a simpler "Team has surrendered" message shows. Thoughts?

                              As for hive score, some people just take that too seriously. WinOrLose gives an incredibly generous amount of time to complete the objective, and as Wyzcrak said it is extremely rare for WinOrLose to affect the outcome of a game. That said, I don't see the harm in reporting the original unmodified outcome to hive, and spoofing the victory / loss message as necessary.

                              I'm also fine with changes to make WinOrLose more interesting. Several suggestions for this have been made already, such as messing with the power nodes, re-enabling clogs and other barriers, and/or eliminating the timer penalty for killing the surrendering players.

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X