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No more Cargo start on Veil

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  • No more Cargo start on Veil

    Can we remove the Cargo start in Veil for Aliens? Their naturals are either hives or nano, and both are pretty crazy to try to hold early on.

    You pretty much have to have 2 gorges every game or completely leave one side of the map undefended.

    Mom
    Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
    Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

    You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
    Forever Perplexed

  • #2
    Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

    Someone comm'd Alien cargo start tonight.

    Anyone feeling the same way about Cargo Alien start?

    Mom
    Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
    Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

    You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
    Forever Perplexed

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

      I personally feel on Veil that Cargo is the strongest opening because it gives you options. If your not in Cargo, generally Cargo has to be your second hive. There always a weaker flank on the marines team that you can push pack and hold. If your not in cargo, you have to make sure that flank is Cargo. Plus, if you hold double and your second hive that is 3 nodes outside of your main. More then enough to tech on if you spend the rest on upgrades rather then things like whips in Cargo protecting boxes.
      Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

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      • #4
        Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

        I like cargo start but you have to keep marines from ARCing in West to hold nano. If marines hold system aliens are in trouble due to the cargo jetpack rush and leaving only a safe vent route to the left side for res pressure.
        Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
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        • #5
          Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

          Cargo is actually the most balanced start of the three, based on a whole lot of historical match data.

          Pipeline is actually the worst start, so if you are talking about banning one, I would start there.
          remi.D

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          • #6
            Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

            It is also worth pointing out that in general veil is a pretty well balanced and popular map... so limiting spawn options on it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.
            remi.D

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            • #7
              Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

              Fair enough.

              I kham'd Cargo start the other night and it felt very limited. It always has to me as kham, so I thought I'd bring it up.

              My experience has been it largely depends on the Marine team. Veil is definitely an arms lab > pg map, so when you get someone like Nom on the Marine team, it almost becomes a given that Aliens are going to struggle early game with a Cargo start. The reason I thought about bringing it up was that Nom was on the Marine team with what could be considered average shooters with him and he and one other guy basically stopped Aliens from advancing at all. If the Marine comm had ordered Nom somewhere else early that game, it would have played out much better. But it was one of those "let the good shooter do whatever he wants" games and he basically held Nano by himself against several waves of skulks (waves being between 3 and 5.. at one point I even sent the entire team to Nano and Nom and one other guy held it)... just didn't seem balanced to essentially lose the game to 2 guys.

              It could have been a failure on my part, though, so again, fair enough.

              I would at least like to put a pin in it. If you guys kham or play Aliens and notice this, maybe we revisit and consider a different spawn weight on Cargo rather than a full ban.

              Mom
              Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
              Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

              You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
              Forever Perplexed

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

                I don't remember that particular game, Mom. Was it captains mode?

                Nano is pretty easy for a few marines to hold early on if skulks trickle in rather than rush in unison. Skulks should pick up speed from further away instead of waiting near the entrances and gaining the majority of their speed while they're already in marines' line of sight. Coordinating this might be difficult if some players aren't that good at wall jumping, causing them to trickle in anyway due to their difference in speed gain. One or two skulks flanking through the vents is something that I don't see often even though it usually results in aliens easily taking nano back. Even if you make noise in the vents, you keep a marine's attention or at least split it between the front and back entrances. All that's left is for someone to say, "Go," and those two marines are dead if your entire team is there.

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                • #9
                  Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

                  I don't remember, Nom. I just remember hating you. :P

                  I think you're kinda nail on the head there, Nom. That's an awful lot of coordination to expect out of one team, given how many games we're playing with unregs, just to secure naturals. I'm not saying it shouldn't be expected that we can pull that off in our server, I'm saying that if every single Alien Cargo start relies heavily on just that one effort, then there's a flaw in the map. Maybe it's just me, but from my experience building and testing maps, you want each start to have at least two options, and Cargo start doesn't have that. Maybe that's what bothers me so much.

                  I mean, the only way to secure two nodes starting Cargo if you don't take Nano is to hold both hives, or extend very far beyond what can be considered a natural. That's the observation I'm making.

                  In hindsight, I suppose all the starts possible are a little unorthodox for NS2 maps. Each other hive start has to hold Cargo.

                  On every other map I can think of, each possible Alien start has 2 nodes that Aliens can hold that are not another hive. Veil is the exception to the rule.

                  Mom
                  Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                  Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                  You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                  Forever Perplexed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

                    If nom and another person were holding a nano, that is not a map problem but a skill problem. Nom is already greater in skill than 99% of ns2 players. He alone can imbalance a team. He can't help it. This is more a function of the small playerbase ns2 has than the map.

                    As remi mentioned, veil is one of the most balanced maps and cargo is one of the more balanced starts.

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                    • #11
                      Re: No more Cargo start on Veil

                      Yeah, so maybe it was just chance.

                      I just wanted to bring up an observation. Majority rules. :)

                      Mom
                      Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                      Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                      You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                      Forever Perplexed

                      Comment

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