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  • Boneshield + MG Changes

    Remi's authored a prototype mod to investigate how changes to Boneshield and MG will make both more satisfying contributors.

    Boneshield + MG Changes

    It's on the game server. We played a few games tonight, and it was fun.

    [MENTION=11204]blu.knight[/MENTION] -- could you explain what the mod has in it?
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

    Bone shield - Armor will increase in an exponential curve instead of a linear. This means to get the same heals as before you need to use more of the bone shield "fuel". If you hold it down for the 4 seconds, the amount of armor that is healed is the same (it just starts out slower)

    MG Arcing Bullets - When shooting an Onos, any other nearby Oni receives 25% splash damage. This should help when facing multiple Oni.
    remi.D

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

      Originally posted by blu.knight View Post
      Bone shield - Armor will increase in an exponential curve instead of a linear. This means to get the same heals as before you need to use more of the bone shield "fuel". If you hold it down for the 4 seconds, the amount of armor that is healed is the same (it just starts out slower)

      MG Arcing Bullets - When shooting an Onos, any other nearby Oni receives 25% splash damage. This should help when facing multiple Oni.
      Incoming change for bone shield in my prototype mod...
      - reverted armor regen to be linear
      - armor regen only occurs while taking damage
      - armor regen costs energy (when taking damage with bone shield, your energy will be going down)

      Feedback is welcome.
      remi.D

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

        First off, thanks for your efforts remi, I personally believe that the changes are necessary and are heading in the right direction, but I think we aren't quite there yet.

        Just tried it out in a round. Felt a lot like the old bone shield, especially with the energy drain, which makes me revert to the way I played back then. Basically, I would hit and run and not use it at all. I couldn't see the point to use it 90% of the time it because it would stop me in my tracks. It is a bit different because you can move slowly when using it so I'll admit it isn't exactly the same as the old bone shield; maybe it will feel different if I try using it in different ways I haven't thought of.

        Anyway, I think the changes you are trying are a good thing, but spending the time and res to research the tech itself feels a bit irrelevant now. I think we should keep it with the changes you have made but perhaps we could make it reduce speed less. Basically, it would feel helpful in a fight but wouldn't let you stay around for too long without being overwhelmed.

        For me, boneshield was really powerful because I could use it to harass away from support constantly. Often, I could simply hit and run down defences much faster than marines could reinforce. I didn't use it to block shots that much because it would slow me down. I would use it around a corner where I knew I was already safe to regenerate to full armour (which is why the exponential regenerate thing didn't really effect this play style). In a fight, most of the time if I wanted to reduce the damage on me I would think about obstructing their line of fire using my surroundings or killing them faster, rather than reducing the damaged delivered on me with boneshield. I might change my mind about using it if I could still manoeuvre somewhat when using it.

        If you think that a speed increase is a bit too overpowered, I think it could be interesting to have it where momentum was somewhat maintained in the direction you are moving if you activated it while already moving or charging but speed would drop off if held on for too long. The only issue with this could be that it might be silly to see essentially drifting onoses (though gorges drift around and people love that).
        Last edited by OrigamiPaper; 09-14-2016, 11:00 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

          I might have to take back what I said, I witnessed shootme engaging 1-3 marines, and he gained a net increase in armour by timing his bone shield. The bone shields threw off the timing of each marine so they would stop and reload prematurely without fully emptying a clip (because they saw him gain health). Seeing that convinced me that Bone shield is still very powerful, and now has an interesting psychological aspect (should I unload my rifle or should I wait?) which I'm not sure was intended or not.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

            It is still an enormous risk using bone shield during an escape, due to having to stop and turn around. In the previous design, it was most useful as an out-of-combat regen tool. In its current design, it is very much like it used to be before the regen mechanic was added. It is most useful when you already have a lot of health, and just need to mitigate incoming damage for a moment.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

              Flamethrowers and bone shield changes. Does the DOT effect of the flamethrower enable the onos to activate bone shield? Can it be set does that the DOT does not itself allow bone shield regen to be triggered? Should the flamethrower DOT prevent any activation of bone shield, thus serving as a counter?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                Originally posted by OrigamiPaper View Post
                and now has an interesting psychological aspect (should I unload my rifle or should I wait?) which I'm not sure was intended or not.
                It was indeed intended. This is also why it uses energy (if you keep shooting they heal, but then they can't use charge after)

                Originally posted by thane View Post
                Flamethrowers and bone shield changes. Does the DOT effect of the flamethrower enable the onos to activate bone shield? Can it be set does that the DOT does not itself allow bone shield regen to be triggered? Should the flamethrower DOT prevent any activation of bone shield, thus serving as a counter?
                Yes, flamethrower would currently trigger the heal. So does MG splash damage. Neither is really intended (emergent mechanics!!). It's why testing is so useful. I'm not sure which way it should work.


                ONE MORE INCOMING CHANGE: Onos pres cost raised to 60 (from 55). Reasoning behind this is that with the pres increase Onos timing actually came in by about 2 minutes (assuming 4 alien rts). Because of this, the risk of saving for Onos was greatly reduced, and so there have been many less Fades/Lerks. By increasing this, it will be riskier to try to skip Lerk or Fade tech.


                I appreciate the feedback on all of this. I also appreciate that you came back with a follow up Origami. :)
                remi.D

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                  Originally posted by OrigamiPaper View Post
                  Anyway, I think the changes you are trying are a good thing, but spending the time and res to research the tech itself feels a bit irrelevant now. I think we should keep it with the changes you have made but perhaps we could make it reduce speed less. Basically, it would feel helpful in a fight but wouldn't let you stay around for too long without being overwhelmed.
                  Adding some more movement to the ability is one of the changes under consideration. It would require some animation work as well and I'm not sure how much I like it from the design standpoint which is why I haven't gone that route yet.

                  Originally posted by OrigamiPaper View Post
                  For me, boneshield was really powerful because I could use it to harass away from support constantly. Often, I could simply hit and run down defences much faster than marines could reinforce. I didn't use it to block shots that much because it would slow me down. I would use it around a corner where I knew I was already safe to regenerate to full armour (which is why the exponential regenerate thing didn't really effect this play style).
                  Yes, this is the exact set of tactics I'm trying to remove. It results in relentless Onos attacks (because you can heal up so fast) at no additional risk. Bone shield is meant to be an in-combat ability.
                  remi.D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                    Originally posted by blu.knight View Post
                    Yes, this is the exact set of tactics I'm trying to remove. It results in relentless Onos attacks (because you can heal up so fast) at no additional risk. Bone shield is meant to be an in-combat ability.
                    It was common to chase an onos at 600 HP and no armor and have him stop for 4 seconds around a corner and be at 700 HP 400 armor. Time after time. As much as I enjoyed being able to do that as an onos, it really didn't seem very fair so I am fully in favor of the current changes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                      You know what would be fun, and totally nonsensical, is if bone shield absorbed bullets and shot them back out in a forward spray after a few seconds. That would make me use it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                        The current implementation seems limited imo, as it only has an effect during combat. So it's only useful if running away (questionable as to whether that counts as combat), attacking with enough marines to get the benefit but not too many or else you'll die anyway, or as a semi-mobile wall to allow gorges to bile. The last use seems to be the most direct way to use boneshield in it's current test implementation and while it's a good teamwork mechanic it takes a lot of coordination to pull off largely due to the different movement speeds, more often than not it seemed that right as the gorge got into position it was time for the onos to run when I last played with this. Ideally I think some out of combat use should be added back in, but perhaps with a significantly reduced regeneration rate so that it is still more efficient to go to your local neighborhood hive or friendly healing gorge and prevents the relentless attacks issue.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                          Originally posted by blu.knight View Post
                          ONE MORE INCOMING CHANGE: Onos pres cost raised to 60 (from 55). Reasoning behind this is that with the pres increase Onos timing actually came in by about 2 minutes (assuming 4 alien rts). Because of this, the risk of saving for Onos was greatly reduced, and so there have been many less Fades/Lerks. By increasing this, it will be riskier to try to skip Lerk or Fade tech.
                          I am not so sure that this change has really had the intended effect. It slows the alien team from getting upgraded onos on the field, but does nothing to actually promote the aliens to go with a lerk or fade. The onos just comes out later and gives the marines more time to get better upgrades. If the marines are pushing the aliens hard and the aliens only have 2 nodes, that 5 res makes a huge difference in the balance. In this scenario, non-confident players will still save for the stronger onos instead of flashing as a lerk or fade. In the reverse, if the aliens are pushing the marines hard, that 5 res is meaningless to the alien teams decision making process.

                          To me, it seems like this change really just punishes an alien team that is already losing, so the onos does not come into the field at around the same time as jetpacks or exos. Instead, the naked onos comes out into the field with a marine team that could have both JPs and exos and weapons 3 without any real sacrafice on the marine side.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Boneshield + MG Changes

                            UPDATES:

                            - Removed MG Splash Damage
                            - Onos Pres cost upped to 62
                            - Onos energy drain doubled while healing
                            - Onos must wait for cooldown to "Refill" before being able to use bone shield again (back to how it currently is in vanilla)
                            remi.D

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've updated this mod to include the upcoming 310 balance changes:

                              - Improved Lerk movement (crouch dive, side flap, and non-celerity flap/aircontrol)
                              - Improved belly slide
                              - Slightly reduced shotgun spread
                              - Onos pres cost 62 (this was already included, but will be graduating to vanilla in 310)
                              remi.D

                              Comment

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