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  • exploit or not?

    The elevators on ns_nothing. can you spit/bite/use the button to stop the elevator mid way

    What's the pubic opinion on this?

  • #2
    Re: exploit or not?

    Its usefull. I don't see anything wrong. Though imho I would prefer it to reverse the elevator, not stop it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: exploit or not?

      Preventing moving elevators/doors from performing their intended actions is not allowed. It appears the rules haven't yet been updated to reflect this (http://www.tacticalwiki.com/index.php/TGNS_Rules), but there was recently a discussion in the IRC channel where it was made clear this is against the rules.

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      • #4
        Re: exploit or not?

        How do you know the "intended action" of the ns_nothing elevator isn't to stop when the button is pressed twice?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: exploit or not?

          Originally posted by rs_j
          Preventing moving elevators/doors from performing their intended actions is not allowed. It appears the rules haven't yet been updated to reflect this (http://www.tacticalwiki.com/index.php/TGNS_Rules), but there was recently a discussion in the IRC channel where it was made clear this is against the rules.
          JOOC, whats the rationale for that conclusion? If the other person can simply press the button again, and the elevator indeed moves at least a small amount each time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: exploit or not?

            Is this an exploit? I believe the intended use of a lift is to either go up or down, with no in-between. It is a bug, and to intentionaly use this bug in the game is an exploit.

            I mean, use Common Sense people, how is doing this on the server a good thing?
            USAR

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            • #7
              Re: exploit or not?

              Just as a defense, this isn't something I do or have done beyond just messing around. And I figured it was a bug. But how is it severe enough to warrant being against the rules? Beyond the elevator pausing, how is it a i]bad[/i] thing?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: exploit or not?

                Doing that doesn't render the elevator unusable... Simply hit the button again, and your set. It's like one of those fire buttons in a real elevator..
                birdie_in_Texas:ok..i feel stupid here..what is "NS"..? Wyzcrak:Natural Selection. Don't feel at a loss for not knowing the acronym. Feel at a loss for not having experienced the game.

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                • #9
                  Re: exploit or not?

                  I thought the exploit was blocking the elevators with strutures like offense chambers.

                  If you hit the button while the elevator is moving it will stop, you can hit it again and it will continue moving.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: exploit or not?

                    Ok. Here's my take on this. I consider it to be an exploit, and here is why:
                    As a mapper, I know for a fact that the behavior of that elevator is actually caused by a fault in the trigger chain controlling the lift. It is difficult to pinpoint excactly the specific cause, but my guess is that the plat has a mislinked or multilinked button that was overlooked before the final compile of the map. Usual cause from my experience is using a prefab entity chain and not changing the targetname_* flags with multiple instances.
                    Alternately, It could be caused by having the Toggle spawnflag set on both the master entity and slave entity (button and platform itself) with a delay tag set too low or by using the wrong entity type as the master.

                    This behavior IS by a proffesional viewpoint a glitch and would be something I personally would make a point to fix if it had been my map. Likely though, it was never pointed out to the mapper at the time of release because no one noticed due to the nature of the problem and the actions necessary to produce it. It just plain isnt something that a mapper looks for as a bug when playtesting. there are much bigger problems to look for.

                    The connecting world geometry and the locations of the buttons are what really make this an exploit versus just a harmless glitch. If used with malicous intent, this platform can cause major disruption to the flow and gameplay of the map because:
                    1.) The platform can only be triggered from around the corner at the top and bottom
                    2.) The platform can be stopped in positions where the player on the platform CANNOT resume it's motion
                    3.) This allows people to trap or otherwise kill/immobilize other players without risk to self
                    4.) if both teams are trying to use the elevator, it is possible for one team to use this action to entirely prevent access to multiple strategicly important areas of the map, disrupting the intended flow of the map.
                    5.) this allows for possible "unnatural" fortification of areas within the map giving an unfair advantage by preventing access alltogether. (remniscent of building IPs or phasegates outside the world as seen in some early maps.)

                    If you don't think these things are possible just from a malfunctioning lift, I'd have to say that you havnt been around too long... Because I've seen it done.
                    These are my views on this "problem" and have always considered it personally immoral to exploit these actions. :icon32:
                    OP8
                    _________
                    <OP8-322>
                    %#^^^#%

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: exploit or not?

                      To use the lift as you describe would require a Gorge with adrenaline near an MC who was doing nothing else to help the team. Also, each time the button was pressed to continue the elevator moving, it would move slightly. And about a player standing on the elevator when it stops, I would expect that the standard of player be above that on these servers. The maps are small enough and the people respectful enough that the distressed player could easily ask someone to come press the button for him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: exploit or not?

                        Originally posted by OP8
                        The connecting world geometry and the locations of the buttons are what really make this an exploit versus just a harmless glitch. If used with malicous intent, this platform can cause major disruption to the flow and gameplay of the map because:
                        1.) The platform can only be triggered from around the corner at the top and bottom
                        2.) The platform can be stopped in positions where the player on the platform CANNOT resume it's motion
                        3.) This allows people to trap or otherwise kill/immobilize other players without risk to self
                        4.) if both teams are trying to use the elevator, it is possible for one team to use this action to entirely prevent access to multiple strategicly important areas of the map, disrupting the intended flow of the map.
                        5.) this allows for possible "unnatural" fortification of areas within the map giving an unfair advantage by preventing access alltogether. (remniscent of building IPs or phasegates outside the world as seen in some early maps.)
                        Five great reasons for me to ban someone for this action. To me, this is functionally no different than building chambers beneath it to stop it from coming down.

                        Don't do this.
                        [volun2]
                        NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                        Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                        <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                        <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                        Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: exploit or not?

                          Originally posted by Karkianman101
                          To use the lift as you describe would require a Gorge with adrenaline near an MC who was doing nothing else to help the team. Also, each time the button was pressed to continue the elevator moving, it would move slightly. And about a player standing on the elevator when it stops, I would expect that the standard of player be above that on these servers. The maps are small enough and the people respectful enough that the distressed player could easily ask someone to come press the button for him.
                          You don't have to be a gorge, have adrenaline, or be near an MC to press your "use" key.

                          Time is precious, and being able to cause elevators to stop functioning gives an advantage that is not available by design, but by oversight. This is especially true if the bulk of the marine team foolishly boards the elevator and no one is left to push the button on their end, or if an alien is trying to flee down a moving elevator and is trapped by a marine pressing the button. Add in the fact that on ns_nothing the two halves of the map are only connected by three elevators and one vent (two vents if you have jetpacks), and it could be quite a problem if properly abused.

                          In any case, I would rather jump down the elevator shaft than ride it down.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: exploit or not?

                            The key in question was last I checked visible from the lift, and last I recall marine guns can shoot through the floor of it, since its all holey. So anything standing there pressing it would open itself to attack. Unless of course my memory is even worse than I imagined...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: exploit or not?

                              From memory, pressing the button was never considered an exploit, while blocking it with chambers or a player was. I fail to see the harm in stopping the elevator by pressing the button, although I'd find it far more useful to just wait on said marines to start coming down and hop on the elevator with them. The reasoning that pressing the button should be allowed is that the elevators are designed to slow down marine advancement into the alien section of the map. It is a make or break issue for aliens to come up the elevators or for marines to go down it. That was the idea of the elevators to begin with, to make moving past that point more difficult than other parts of the map. All elevators are dangerous to both teams, those elevators happen to be strategically placed to slow down the game speed on this particular map.
                              Last edited by TheAdj`; 11-28-2005, 12:34 AM. Reason: More Information

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