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  • Enforce Minimum Requirements For New Players?

    It's nice to see fresher blood in NS2, and it's good to see new players on the server, but rookies that are "fresh off the boat" aren't going to grow and learn on TGNS. The playstyle, and expectations, are too high.

    Could we set a minimum of hours in game to join? Maybe let them spec freely, but must have 20 hours before they can play? This will also inadvertently block newly created smurf accounts, although they've been less active recently.

  • #2
    Players new to the title sometimes arrive on the game server ill-prepared to even send a chat message. They haven't even gotten that far in their knowledge.

    I don't want to programmatically exclude new players due to inability to competitively contribute, but I do want to programmatically exclude ANY player based on inability to reliably communicate in a timely fashion. Insofar as anyone is so "fresh off the boat" that they don't even know how to communicate via the game client, they needn't be on TGNS.

    The trick, then, is to take another baby step toward programmatic enforcement of a new guest's ability to reliably communicate in a timely fashion. For those who remember, we made an effort years ago with PassCodes, but that implementation interfered too much with gameplay and was eventually discontinued. So this next "minimum requirements" addition would need to happen in the Ready Room before a player joins the team.

    We don't require a microphone, but we do require that folks respond at least via chat, so it might help overall if we gate new friends in the Ready Room with a programmatic requirement that they type a specific, advertised phrase into chat before being allowed to join a team -- maybe "I will hear voicecomms".

    This would prove their ability to comprehend instruction, and demonstrating their ability to basically converse with automation before joining the team better prepares everyone for voicecomm-vouching dialog once they're on the team (they might respond with mic, but we'd have confidence they're able to chat, if nothing else).

    I'll start on something. I'll just apply it to non-Primer signers, however new. It'll be annoying for folks who know what's up, but, really, anyone who's here /that/ often needs to be signing that thing anyway.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      I get the hint above, but let me tell you something you seem to have difficulty understanding. That "inability to reliably communicate in a timely fashion" might be caused more by in-game preoccupation than simple laziness and unreliability. Some TGNS regulars like me who do not use microphones often prefer to momentarily ignore voice comm rather than stop in the middle of, say, a Gorge/Onos chase and type "excuse me commander, I'm trying to kill this life form before it gets away" or "first let me make sure that my 62 pres isn't going to get wasted by a pistol-wielding marine, then I'll be more than happy to satisfy your curiosity as to what's going on in the nearby room". I once received unnecessary negative attitude from a certain Khamm on TGNS for the reason that I was "difficult to communicate with", just because I happened to be too busy to reply to his voice comm in the heat of things, as though I was the only one on the server who was quiet most of the time.

      Here's a suggestion: either introduce a no mic rule so voiceless players may stop wasting their time on a tactical server where their tactical skills are not appreciated, or kindly give us voiceless folks a break, we don't like to be told we are useless.

      I don't use a mic because I'm not comfortable speaking English, it's a mouthful language. But I'd hate that to be the reason for me to leave a server frequented by so many great players. More importantly, it's not good for the server itself if more voiceless players are forced to take such measure.

      Don't take it personally, it's constructive criticism.

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      • #4
        You are not a new player. Most micless folks with your experience and in your situation do habitually much better than you do with communication given the same opportunities and aren't at all the focus of rad's concern as I understand it.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
          Most micless folks with your experience and in your situation do habitually much better than you do with communication given the same opportunities...
          That's a dishonest thing to say. I have been on TGNS for months and most voiceless people over there are quite and when they talk they usually give bad intel or say things that are supposed to be funny. Even a lot of the well-known P's with mics are often quiet. So either you're being disingenuous for some reason, or your observation is being retarded by something.

          Look, when I play on TGNS, I do my best as others do given the server's expectations, so I naturally expect some respect in return. Or maybe respect is SM luxury here, I don't know. But what I do know for certain is that the standards of admin behaviour on TGNS needs to be improved, for the server's sake at least.

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          • #6
            the problem isn't micless folks, it is clueless folks that just started playing.

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            • #7
              Sargon, I don't in this thread have any remedy for your concern. Create another thread if you like.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wyzcrak View Post
                Sargon, I don't in this thread have any remedy for your concern. Create another thread if you like.
                Well, if you want to chicken out after saying something foolish, I'm not interested in taking it any further.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've deployed an enforcement remedy aimed at improving early communications with non-regulars.

                  It's not active at lower populations, as it needn't slow down seeding efforts.

                  Otherwise, it's active on a player only if they 1) have not signed the Primer and 2) have not had their voicecomms vouched (which a server remembers for several hours at a time). Continue to vouch player voicecomms.

                  Enforcement targets appear on the scoreboard with a distinct color (something approaching pink -- the blueish BKA color, when applicable, overrides this pinkish color). These players must chat "I will hear" (case-insensitive, all or team) to remove the color from their player name, at which point they may join a team.

                  Here's the messaging that targets see (others see nothing):

                  When refused team entry: "Type 'I will hear' into chat to play. Press 'y' to chat."
                  After entering the chat: "Thank you. Join a team when you can."

                  The player's comms are meanwhile entirely undeterred, with one exception: their successful "I will hear" chat message is hidden -- the scoreboard color conveys the player's status with regard to this enforcement. Just as BKA-gated players turn blue and then white with no interruption to other players, so too will these players typically begin pink and then turn white all by themselves. And, just as with BKA, we'll occasionally need to help folks along.

                  Continue conveying the importance of the Required Reading when advising folks to "sign the Primer" for whatever reason.

                  Feedback welcome. Please report defects.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So...not that I don't see the value of the change, but it seems like we are trying to solve a social problem in a bit of a convoluted fashion. Why not simply force all players to set their BKA before being allowed to join a team? We require this eventually anyway and it would accomplish much of what you will accomplish with this change.

                    More to the point, responding to text does not mean you can hear voice chat, which is the requirement.

                    To Sargon's point, as a regular and SM, I can tell you first hand that we get yelled at too for not responding fast enough. I don't think it is personal to anybody in particular, but I do get the feeling sometimes that some commanders are playing too much Starcraft and get annoyed when the other players respond like humans. Humans make mistakes, make choices, and generally communicate badly. What voice chatter some commanders like will make other commanders annoyed. Everybody has their own play style and at the end of the night, it is all just a game.

                    Over the past year, it seems like we have started focusing too much on playing the most optimal game ever every round...and sometimes, you just want to go hunting for better players like Nom with a shotgun to stop his fade. It may not help the team that much in the long run, but it is much more satisfying for me personally than playing the most optimal game. (Similar to those that like to play a few rounds of infest to break up the NS maps.)

                    The server has a lot of cool mods, but as Rad stated, we are geared too much at the higher level players to be really accommodating to the rookies fresh off the steam sale. We can try to help them, but realistically they are going to get slot bumped as the server picks up anyway. I know how frustrating it can be in small games, but will this really change that? Plenty of rookies talk on the mic but still don't follow orders well or at all. It is a first step...but it is still just a transitory step to the actual intended behavior.

                    On a side note:
                    1) Can you tell them to use the key they actually have bound instead of just the generic "y" key? I personally re-bind my keys, so the value for some will not be the value for all players.
                    2) I have noticed over the past few weeks that when there is only 1 non-primer on each team, the slot logic now kicks them first instead of protecting them like it used to do. Is that intended?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Forcing players to set BKA will too much repel players familiar with the title and unfamiliar with TGNS. I specifically chose to let guests play 20 TGNS games before imposing any BKA requirement. Inconveniencing players is tricky business.

                      This new enforcement isn't meant to prove they can hear voicecomm. It's "actual intended behavior" is to set the expectation and prove they can type. It's a baby step. We'll still vouch them as we always have.

                      Otherwise, unless we're talking about this new enforcement specifically, this talk of what experienced players are experiencing on TGNS is out of scope to this thread. I'll share my thoughts on all that if anyone's bothered enough by it to create a thread for it.

                      I've rejected rad's assertion that we're unsuitable for brand new players. We can and should continue to welcome all players, but we can make everyone new to the server better demonstrate their ability to communicate before allowing them on the team. The current implementation might change based on observation/feedback (maybe the "I will hear" target audience will shift a bit, etc).

                      Yes, I can dynamically advertise the right chat bind key. If I several times witness new players with custom binds struggling with the gate, I'll put in that additional dev effort. The messaging makes clear the expectations, and I expect most players with custom binds to figure it out. The voicecomm vouch bubbles have long advertised 'y' unconditionally, and it hasn't been a significant problem.

                      The last two Strangers on teams enjoy slot immunity only during their first 10 TGNS games, and that hasn't changed in some time. That also needs its own thread if we continue to think that defective based on continued observations.

                      I welcome discussion on all these topics, but we've got enough to discuss in THIS thread just regarding this new implementation and its specific purpose, which I hope is clear at this point. Take other topics to other threads.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've further scoped this to Rookies. So, enforcement prerequisites now are:

                        ) server is higher population and

                        ) player has not signed the TGNS Primer and

                        ) player is not voicecomm vouched and

                        ) player is a Rookie
                        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In my opinion if this kind of thing is being added, you really need to unrank TGNS so rookies don't happen upon it by accident.
                          remi.D

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                          • #14
                            Ranking isn't threatened, as one's individual competitive strength necessary to win the game isn't significantly influenced by this. Rookies will be glad to have found a server where teamwork plays a more reliable role in winning.
                            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              All servers are now "ranked". The server being whitelisted/ranked now only means... level progression + rookie visibility.
                              remi.D

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