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  • experiment: welders

    Some games tonight with the following change: every 3 minutes, each Marine gets a free welder when spawning near an Armory.

    In the context of Aliens winning ~60% of TGNS games, the purpose of the experiment is to bring that closer to half, encourage teamplay among Marines, and then, in turn, strengthen teamplay among Aliens. Those are equal goals, really -- if the teamplay gets better on both sides, and the win/loss rate isn't a disaster as a result, that's its own victory.

    This experiment will evolve based on feedback or be removed.

    This thread is for feedback/discussion.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    I suspect people are gradually unlearning the habit of buying a welder.

    I don't know about the rest of you but it now feels wasteful of personal resources to buy one.

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    • #3
      I've lowered the timer to 2 minutes. Just FYI. It might change again.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

      Comment


      • #4
        I really like the idea of free welders to balance things out a bit. I'm not sure about the mechanics of every X minutes being the best solution, as I found myself constantly buying welders before, but now I don't pay as much attention to it, and the text is there, but there is so much going on on the screen and chat, it's easy to miss. I'm not sure what alternative there would be, unless you could research auto-welders on the comm chair or something? I'm thinking that would have to be programmed into the main game though.
        HaX^

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        • #5
          I've changed the experiment such that, instead of getting a free welder automatically every X minutes, you're every X minutes reimbursed for the cost of any welder you purchase (immediately, at moment of purchase). Nothing (yet?) tells you it's been two minutes. X remains 2 for now.
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

          Comment


          • #6
            With the reimburse mechanic, the purchase habit is preserved, and the Marines are moreso incentivized to have welders, which is good for reasons previously stated.

            But the reimburse mechanic is not intuitive. Meanwhile free welders are overpowered. I think the next phase of the experiment might be to abandon the reimburse mechanic and simply lower the cost of welders.
            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

            Comment


            • #7
              ( They're still reimbursed so far. I haven't lowered the cost. I was just brainstorming. I'll post here if I lower the cost. )
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                I lowered X to 1 minute, but the reimbursement mechanic continues to feel like an improvement opportunity.
                Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think I first proposed the free welder idea, my reasoning for it is that welders are the perfect tool for encouraging marine teamwork and good behavior through intuitive game mechanics and not any arbitrary rules. My thought is that many marine losses on our server can be attributed to poor early/mid-game teamwork resulting in a loss of territory and subsequent snowballing. The solution is to somehow better incentivize moving in groups of 2 and 3, and discourage lone heroics (which most of our players aren't good enough shooters to pull off, myself included).

                  Welders in theory are the perfect answer to that, but people often don't buy them, and so it's hard to trust your teammates to be able to weld you. Sometimes they don't buy one because they're selfish, but in more cases I think it's because they suspect it won't be useful in that particular life - they just want to respond to an emergency ASAP, or they expect to go on a suicide mission with low odds of success. Sometimes their choice is justified, but sometimes they do actually end up in a situation where they want a welder and it's too late. I actually would rather just put a welder in every marine's hands when they spawn once the research is done, no complex timers or hidden reimbursements. The idea that marines will somehow forget how to buy welders because of this doesn't worry me - if the experiment ends, they'll figure it out real quick. Just message it clearly while it's active.

                  That said, I never thought that marines needed a buff to their PRes economy. The idea wasn't to give them more money for guns, it was simply to better encourage pack play. So I think PRes income should be reduced slightly, or gear prices increased slightly, to compensate for the 3 res no longer being spent on each spawn.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Marine movement isn't slowed by automatic welders (welders don't have weight), and the axe disruption is tolerable during attacks.

                    Ok. We'll try free welders when spawning near an armory, with an X% slower p-res for Marines (if Marines have an IP near an Armory).

                    We'll start with X=10, I'll augment the game-start message to advertise that, and I'll post again here when all of that is deployed.
                    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Are there or could we get statistics on how much res is spent on specific weapons per game?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't have that to share. But maybe someone could ballpark it...
                        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          10% pres reduction is huge nerf especially in the late game when more extractors have been captured. Does it make sense for a marine who hasn't died have 10% less res (minus the cost of a single welder)? Marines already have it hard on our server. I don't think our win/lose ratios have changed much since we've added the free welders (ie. still alien biased, can you query Wonitor for a time period?). Either make it auto-buy on spawn (take away the exact res at the cost of the welder) or keep it free. Personally, I'd prefer to keep the control of welders in the hands of the players.

                          I know that sometimes I forget to buy a welder or forgo buying one because of the time involved to buy it. Other times I know it is pretty likely that I could pick one off a dead body (e.g. running through a contested phase gate). If I could set a toggle somewhere to make it auto-buy at an armory when I run past it I would probably keep it on (so long as it doesn't make me switch weapons when I buy it).

                          At the same time, I feel that if I want to spend all of my 30 res on mines I should be able to. 2 extra mines could mean the difference between losing a gate location or keeping it.

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                          • #14
                            Seems like Marines are already burdened by a slight W/L disadvantage (might be a large disadvantage. I'd love to know the W/L rate for Marines for 314 on this server only). I don't think the extra pres saved by cheaper welders affects the game that much. Consider how often players actually do buy welders and what you're trying to achieve by making the welders cheaper. By adding a PRES nerf, you're disincentivizing welder purchases again.
                            HaX^

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ok. So not everyone can get what they want, and none of us knows yet what's best, so -- in the context of Aliens typically winning 60% of games, we'll err potentially, for a moment, on the side of "too strong Marines" -- free welders and no pres penalty (so, what I said before, but with X=0 for now).

                              So, to repeat what is now deployed (I just deployed it):

                              ) automatic, free welders when you spawn near an Armory

                              ) no pres rate penalty

                              Keep the feedback coming.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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