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experiment: whips

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  • experiment: whips

    Unchanged: the attack logic/balance.

    Changed: the position they take when rooting into infestation.

    Context:

    Whips need line of sight to attack (both for slap and bile). The stock game allows multiple whips to all root in the exact same location, wherein few or no whips have line of sight to nearby targets, as they're blocking each others' lines of sight to nearby targets.

    Experiment:

    I have changed the rooting behavior such that whips give each other a little breathing room when rooting into infestation. This enables whips to more commonly have line of sight to nearby targets, significantly increasing the overall strength of whips.

    To start, I've doubled both the build and supply costs per whip (and I've advertised same at game start).
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    This change is NUTS. We've all wanted whips to just freaking /work/ reliably, but holy WOW it doesn't take many whips at /all/ to become VERY powerful once they target more reliably.

    I'm VERY open-minded about tweaking this change and/or removing it completely.

    Even if we all agree it's good that whips are working much more reliably, we might also agree that balancing that is just more than we want to attempt for now.

    Feedback welcome. Please report defects.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

    Comment


    • #3
      ( it's also /possible/ that the reasons whips fail in gameplay are more complicated than this change understands, such that we'll end up removing this change after observing that it simply didn't change much about actual gameplay. the change definitely needs testing in real games. )
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

      Comment


      • #4
        I collaborated with Katz today (another modder who is working to fix whips). He taught me that my code doesn't fix the whip's broken attack -- with my code, the whip will still sometimes stop attacking due to a defect in the stock game. He's working on code that fixes that, and he's trying to get it in the stock game.

        But he sees benefit in my code which his code doesn't offer: my code lessens the likelihood that whips will block each others' line of sight (another cause for their not attacking -- I'm aware of no plans to mod whips to attack through other whips). So our two efforts co-exist, logically. The visual of watching whips spread out and offensively claim a small area is arguably very much within the spirit of their design.

        On more thought and discussion, I've reverted the resource cost of these modified whips to stock values, as whips have always been expensive, but the supply remains doubled (to 10 from 316's 5), as each whip is now considerably more effective, and so fewer should be necessary. If Katz gets his code included in the game (that fixes their sometimes halting attacks despite continued animations), they'll be even more effective.

        Still very open to feedback, regarding both cost and behavior.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

        Comment


        • #5
          After collaborating more with Katz, I have removed my whip behavior modification code from TGNS, as it's wrapped up now in his new "Working Whips" mod, which goes beyond my contributions to include many targeting reliability improvements and makes whips much more powerful, overall, than they've ever been.

          I've added the "Working Whips" mod to the game server: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...?id=1072400933

          Katz is championing this code for inclusion in the stock game, and I support that, as it brings to the whips the reliability they've always promised and never delivered -- we both agree balance adjustments of some kind will likely be necessary if these whips get included in the stock game.

          To that end, I've left in TGNS mod the double supply cost of whips (stock: 5; modded: 10). Whip resource costs remain stock (13).
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

          Comment


          • #6
            The way the whips spread out as they root is manageable, but it does require a bit of retraining for Khamm. In the past, whips would go PRECISELY where you told them to go. Now, they reposition a bit when they arrive at their move order destination. So make sure your whips remain in range of your intended target as they reposition.
            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm sorry it took so long for me to read all this, but so far I love it! If anything balance or otherwise about whips troubles me, I'll try to post it, but otherwise I'm excited to see that whips finally make that 13 res worth it (the supply cost matters so little for most rounds that it shouldn't cause an issue) for more than just a res sink when I'm at 200 res with the tech tree completed.
              Last edited by Shifter; 09-01-2017, 08:49 PM.

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              • #8
                I was already micro-managing whips to put each one in an ideal position to maximize room coverage, so I'm not sure I would notice the spreading-out behavior.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Is this still present? Is it worth removing now that there are changes to whips just to see the stock gameplay again?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I removed this with 317. Thank you for raising the question.
                    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                    Comment

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