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Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

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  • Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

    This is a topic of which serveral people in the TG community on both sides of the issue have very strong opinions. It is also a topic which more often results in flaming, name-calling, public accusations, and other immature activity, than the mature, open-minded discussion which we in the TG community support, encourage, and require.

    I have created this thread for two reasons:

    1) I'm tired of seeing "NS is a deathmatch mod." or "If only X mod had as much teamplay as NS, then I might play it more." resulting in flame wars. This has happened recently, but it's also happened in the past. It also usually doesn't happen in the NS forum. This thread should, hopefully, serve as a place to point the discussion when that does happen, and bypass a flamewar in someone else's forum which doesn't even relate to them.

    2) I'd actually like to see us attempt to come to some sort of concessus on this issue. I'd like to discuss it in detail. I have some oppinoins on this subject myself, but I have until this point generally avoided the discussion for I rarely see it done maturely. Our ability to do this is what makes TG the community it is.

    Now, before we begin, I'd like to call everyone's attention to two posts that everyone should have already read, but of which I think we could use being reminded.

    The first is from the Tactical Gamer Primer:
    Originally posted by Apophis
    Tactical Gamer was founded with a few very simple principles:

    1) Create an environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers.

    2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing superior real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging advantages provided to players by the design of the game engine.
    I call our attention to the first and second principles. Let us engage in our discussion in a mature fashion, with mutual respect for our fellow gamers. We are here to discuss a topic and opinions on that topic, NOT to discuss the people who hold those opinions!

    The second post I'd like to remind us of is the User Reputation FAQ:
    Originally posted by Apophis
    This system will work best if all the participants balance their reputation input and provide both negative and positive feedback across the board. This system is NOT just here to pick on the posts you donít like. Positive input is always valuable to the poster.

    ...

    The reputation system can be a valuable tool that gives new members a concept of the excellence and contribution of others within the community, as well as provide feedback to show you what type of posts donít go over very well amongst your peers or what posts are appreciated. Tactical Gamer does NOT expect any immature posts to be made in retaliation for negative reputation. Likewise, realize that if you give negative rep that you are dealing with another person that may respond. This is a mature community and we do not expect any problems or abuse of this system.

    We thank you for your honest, fair, and balanced participation in this program.
    This should all go without saying, but recent events show that several people could use the reminder. This thread will hopefully generate a lot of positive rep for people. I say this because I anticipate a lot of mature discussion. Should someone act in a manner you feel is out of line, give them negative rep, and tell them why. If you disagree, do it in PM.

    Remember, people, this is a mature community built upon mutual respect for our fellow gamer.

    Someone take it away! ^_^

    -Girlscoutcookie
    (Jihad Joe)

  • #2
    Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

    I think that NS is not a "deathmatch mod" by definition. There are objectives to the game other than just killing other players, which is the definition of "deathmatch", right? The game does lend itself to being a game that is dominated by twitch reflexes and has very little to offer in terms of balancing the game so that beginners or those with slower reflexes are not left far behind. Despite having objectives, it's very close to being labeled a "deathmatch" game in my mind simply because of this...

    NS players like to claim that the game demands teamwork in order to win. And that's true to a certain extent, but the majority of wins seem to be determined by which team has the most skilled individuals, NOT which team works as a team better...
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    • #3
      Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

      I do not agree with Cing. I am reminded of countless games where teams with skilled players lost because of a lack of teamwork. There is no good excuse for losing three hives in a row to "ninjas" or losing heavy trains because people aren't doing a good job of covering and welding. A team with lesser skill and good teamwork is as flawed (IMO) as a team with good skill and lesser teamwork. As others have said in the past, though, teamwork is also a skill, and many of the skilled players that you see on the server are not only good shots but have a good or excellent understanding of the game and will try to give instructions to the team to help the players work together better. Lazyeye is a perfect example of this.

      You would think that an alien team with good fades should be able to dominate against a marine team of lesser skill, but if the skulks never parasite marines or bite down res towers and the gorges never drop chambers, or the team isn't able to respond as a team to defend structures, then the marine team will very likely win.

      New players with slower "twitch reflexes" can do all sorts of things. ANYONE can build an RT, build an upgrade chamber, build a phase gate, shoot an RT, shoot an upgrade chamber, shoot a hive, bite an RT, heal the hive, heal a fade, clear a phase gate with a hand grenade, shoot grenades into a vent, gas marines, weld a phase gate, build sieges, parasite structures and marines, spot a hive, relay intel, umbra a hive, and I'm pretty confident that anyone can shoot an onos no matter how bad their aim is.

      The biggest divide between beginners and experienced players is not reflexes, but knowledge of the game, and this is especially true for the alien half. I would pick an experienced player with bad or average aim over a brand new player with excellent aim for a captains game any day, simply because the former can do all of the things I listed and more, while the latter will be able to kill skulks more easily but won't understand much of the logic behind the team's actions and therefore will have a really hard time "keeping up."

      My basic point here is that skill and teamwork in this game are both very important. What you say about teams with skilled players winning more often is true, but that is not an indication that skill trumps teamwork, because teams with skilled players usually also have good teamwork.

      Lastly, what games here DON'T reward people with good reflexes? WoW? Civ4? How does this aspect of the game make it any different from any other FPS?

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      • #4
        Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

        Originally posted by CingularDuality
        NS players like to claim that the game demands teamwork in order to win. And that's true to a certain extent, but the majority of wins seem to be determined by which team has the most skilled individuals, NOT which team works as a team better...
        Yes, I've always said its kind of sad when you can look at the teams at round start and have a good indication what your up against and what the odds are of winning. The rare times I've ever seen (for example) an alien team overcome a highly skilled marine team is using extensive teamwork and just plain luck.

        Although I disagree that it is a deathmatch game entirely, because _co is deathmatch :D... there is strategy in _ns. I think its easier to compare the game to deathmatch because it is so fast paced with the dying and spawning (usually).

        Although at least for me NS is still the best teamwork game I've played to this point, even in games with sparse communication the game mechanics encourage teamwork, even if nobody is talking to eachother. Even playing a game with little communication requires more teamwork than you would see in games like BF1942\Vietnam or many other "teamwork" games.

        In all honestly I kind of wish NS would have been a more story based\slower paced mod, but it really seems it lost its "soul" in the process of patching over the years.
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        • #5
          Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

          Regarding DM, Cing has it right.
          Originally posted by [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch]Wikipedia[/url]
          frag as many other players as possible until a certain condition or limit is reached, commonly being a fraglimit or timelimit.
          Acknowledging that as the agreed-upon definition of DM, I think educated NSPlayers are short on discussion, as NS is far, far from the above.

          I disagree with the rest of Cing's post, but it's too off-topic to discuss in this thread.
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          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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          • #6
            Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

            I was on an alien team the other day were the marines had two of are hives locked down within eight minutes, it did'nt look good for a minute there. We had a couple of noobs that did'nt know a whole lot but they were good listeners. We pulled are selfs together and got one hive back & then the next. This was from team work! The players on the the team that were good fades ect, did that part & the people that did'nt know the game that well built the hives & nodes, or took down rine nodes, we ended up winning that game, was one of the best games ive played in probably a month.
            Natural_Selection takes skill & team work not one or the other is going to win the game for you. Thats what makes it such a great game. Deathmatch id have to disagree just my opinion. Later.

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            • #7
              Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

              I think there's a few things confusing the issue:

              1) technically speaking, the Kharaa team doesn't actually require teamwork. I know as well as anyone else who plays that in actual practice teamwork is a must, but I have seen 2-3 really good players working together win all by themselves. This can throw off outsiders who don't play NS very long.

              2) reflexes, tricks and every other advantage players can come up with (configurations, scripts, etc.) are a big part of the games player base, so in that aspect many NS players act more like deathmatch players than strategy players.

              3) beyond a certain point, teamwork is actually optional. This is the big one, so I'll probably repeat myself a lot to try to get it across. If you stop and analyze the game, you should realize that once you get basic communication and coordination down, teamwork no longer is the primary mover in gameplay.

              For example, one player who is busy doing something says a member of the other team is heading to a hive. Another player goes to investigate, gets in combat, and depending on his/her skill level wins or loses the engagement. Meanwhile, roughly the same general thing is happening all the time, sometimes the players team loses, but becuase they are more skilled, most of the time they win. Eventually, they kill the other team. That is one way to play, and if your team out matches the other team it can win you the game.

              Now to show how and why teamwork still plays a Big part of NS. The same scenerio as above. This time, the player talks to his team for a moment. He gets someone to do what he was working on while he helps the other person investigate. They get into a battle but this time it's 2 people working together, thier skill is not only added together, it is also amplified. They easily win, and take advantage of the gap in the enemies defenses to hit a node nearby. They then go back to what they originally were working on, or they help someone else. By working together they add tactical and strategic advantages to every conflict, rather than just the advantages durived from the individuals.

              Teamwork works in NS the same way it does in real life (which is part of why I love the game so much), it isn't some magical force that makes you stronger. It instead amplifies your actions, it allows you to choose when you lose and when you win.

              I don't think I explained that very well, but that's about the best I can do.


              Shorter response, Natural Selection gameplay can (and I've seen it a few times) be played deathmatch style, matching player skill against player skill. But, it is designed so working as a team and creating and controlling objectives will give you strategic strengths that deathmatch play alone could never give you. So, as to whether it's a DeathMatch or Objective game, it's a little of both. It's base, it's lowest minimal gameplay is DeathMatch, but it can and is best played as an Objective game.
              "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

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              • #8
                Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

                Originally posted by Card AKA Karrd
                deathmatch style, matching player skill against player skill
                "Player skill against player skill" is the definition for online multiplayer gaming, not "deathmatch."

                This, plainly, is the definition of DM:
                Originally posted by [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch]Wikipedia[/url]
                frag as many other players as possible until a certain condition or limit is reached, commonly being a fraglimit or timelimit.
                That is not NS.
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                Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                • #9
                  Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

                  Allow me to clarify, what I meant was skill at killing/winning an engagment.

                  And let me point out that I was saying that NS can be played like it was a deathmatch, not that it actually is one.
                  "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

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                  • #10
                    Re: Discuss: NS -- teamwork mod, deathmatch mod, or both?

                    I wouldn't call NS a deathmatch mod at all.

                    Deathmatch: Your sole objective is to kill the other players while keeping yourself alive. Deathmatch is dumping players on the map and they run around and kill each other. You can even use tatics in deathmatch (might not be a "realistic" tatic).

                    Team deathmatch: Something as deathmatch but now players are on 2 (or more) teams with the sole objective of killing each other. You can have teamwork in this mode as you have teammates. The only requirement of teamwork is teammates.

                    Most other game types for fps add other objectives into the game that you can use to win (or help win). Capture a flag, control an area, plant a bomb, rescues a hostage, and kill a structure. The list goes on.

                    Ns main objective is to stop the other team from spawning in. This is done by doing many other objectives, the main one capping on controlling resources towers.

                    Resources towers are basically control points, the more you have the better chance you have to complete your objective, you could consider other stuff objectives too but I wont list them all.

                    Almost every fps revolves around killing the other team, with or without add objectives.

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