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Combat Mode

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  • Combat Mode

    Wyz asked on the server earlier today (or late yesterday) what would make combat more fun. This reminded me of an idea I had, and wrote on the official NS forums not long before they were taken down. If the information was lost I intend to re-post it, and if not I might bump it and try to get some feedback. It hadn't crossed my mind that it could be made as a mod instead of built into the game until today, and at any rate I would like to share it here and get feedback. If people think it sounds cool maybe something can be done.

    My idea is to have team levels in addition to the levels given individually to players. This is how it would work. When a kill is made, experience is given both to the individual levels of the players involved, and to the "team". Just as more total experience is given when a group a people receive experience for a kill, more experience will be given to the team based on the number of people involved.

    All current upgrades you can get with levels would be divided for each team into "team" and "individual" upgrades. Spending individual points would work just like it does now, and spending team points would be based off of votes. Preferably a vote would be held before the next team level is gained so it can be implemented once it is.

    The way I would like to see the upgrades split up is like this:

    Individual - weapons (shotgun, ect) welders, mines, scan, jps, heavies, grens
    Team - armor and weapon upgrades, resupply, motion tracking

    Grenades and resupply I could really see going either way, but personally thats the way I woudl set it up.

    Individual - Life forms, chamber upgrades
    Team - "hive 2", "hive 3", "chambers"

    For aliens the system would be reworked a bit. I think they should be able to "unlock" the next hive for two points each. This would give the whole team the next attack, and I don't know how the current armor situation is handled in combat, but I think working it just like it does in classic where you get the extra .5 damage absorbtion per hive would be nice too.

    Then aliens would also be able to "unlock" a chamber for one point a peice. Individual chamber upgrades would be unavailable until the whole type had been unlocked but I wouldn't limit players to one of each upgrade.

    Also once a chamber is bought it would give the effect of that chamber around the hive. So sensory would give cloaking and SoF in radious around the hive (smaller radius than classic would probably be needed). Defence would increase the hive regen rate a little bit, and movement would give extra adrenaline to aliens near the hive.

    Obviously if this was used people would have to gain thier individual levels more slowly, and balancing would have to be done with the speed both levels are gained at.

    I havn't decided about the prerequisites to get things. Like getting weapons only after weapons 1, and proto tech only after armor 2. Or better yet whether to allow aliens to pick more than one chamber before getting a hive.

    I can't say that I know off the top of my head the best way to balance everything but I think if this was implemented, tested, and balanced it would make combat more strategic, team based, and closer to a learning aid for teaching people to play classic than the current combat mode is. In addition having this would solve a similar problem to that of the "pity experience" mods, by giving a joining player all the team upgrades, but none of the individual ones.

    So what do you all think?

  • #2
    Re: Combat Mode

    Whats your forum name? Ill do a quick search and find your original post.

    On topic: I actually like these suggestions. Most ideas for "fixing" combat are centered around individual decisions. This idea instills more teamwork and group decisions.


    • #3
      Re: Combat Mode forums are up?

      my name should be some variation of Irish Pirate, or Irish_Pirate or anything with irish and pirate in it. I can't say I remember for sure without doing the "submit e-mail" thing to get it back.

      The name of the thread would be something like team levels, not 100% certain.


      • #4
        Re: Combat Mode

        squeak has forum hax.

        I'm running out the door now. I'll read this later, and I look very much forward to doing so.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.


        • #5
          Re: Combat Mode

          Here's your original post:
          Ok I have been trying to think of things that could help combat mode, and one of the things that seemed like a good idea was having levels for the entire team in addition to levels for individual players.

          When a team level is gained there would be some method of voting for the upgrade you want. I would suggest something where you can select the upgrade you want ahead of time, instead of starting a vote for everyone once the level is gained.

          When a player kills an enemy, some experience they would normally get for themselves will go tward the team. And as more total experience is given to people in groups, people fighting in groups will level the team a bit faster.

          The max level for individuals could be lowered a little bit since they will be getting upgrades from the team levels, but also it would take longer to gain individual levels.

          For the marines it feels fairly straight forward what should be team levels. Damage upgrades, armor upgrades, and motion tracking are all upgrades that effect the whole team in classic.

          Alien team levels seem a bit harder because as they are currently set up only the 2nd and 3rd hive abilities would normally be effecting the whole team. For aliens I would like to suggest that in addition to the team levels for 'extra hives' having team levels to unlock different chambers. In addition to unlocking a chamber allowing aliens to select those upgrades, I think it should give the effect of that chamber at the hive. So sensory would give cloaking to aliens near the hive, and mark marines near the hive with scent of fear. Movement would make aliens near the hive recover adren faster, and defence would regen aliens near the hive faster.

          The idea behind these changes would be to bring combat closer to classic and help people learn more about classic in the proccess. This would also help late joining players, as you wouldn't have to be a vanilla marine against higher life forms, or a vanilla skulk against jetpacks and HA.

          In summary I think the advantages of team levels like this would be:
          -It would encorage more teamwork.
          -Late joiners wouldn't be punished as much as they are now.
          -Combat would help people learn classic more than it does now.
          -Combat would be more closely related to Classic.

          This is not without disadvantages though:
          -It would be hard to balance properly.
          -Not everyone would be happy with the votes chosen all of the time.
          And there are probably more.

          All of this stuff can be debated, and I don't mind, but additional points for consideration:
          -Make alien chamber upgrades chained (allow only one per effective hive, new hive abilities required to unlock further chambers)
          -Make new hive abilities both cost 2 levels
          -What should be done with team xp once team levels are full
          -should resupply be a team level for marines or an individual level
          -What should max individual/team level be

          There are many different things that would effect the balance, and I don't claim to know what the best way to put everything together is. I think it's a good idea in general if it can be balanced and other people like it.
          Conceptually I like the idea of a team exp pool to keep the team at a relatively consistent upgrade level like in Classic, might make for an interesting plugin. I don't think it would work well for aliens though, maybe it should just be a marine thing?


          • #6
            Re: Combat Mode

            Well my idea would change how the aliens work much more than it would the marines. If you were only modifying the current combat mode, it would be much harder to make the alien team like I was suggesting.

            I was aiming to keep the teams balanced through the changes, and I think if something was done for marines, something should also be done for the aliens.

            Due to just the difference in the number of upgrades available and the nature of the upgrades between teams, it would be difficult to make a change that is effectively the same for both teams.

            I suggested making the chambers a team upgrade in addition to the hives because it would give the aliens enough team levels to be applicable (if it was only hives there would only be one choice for both hive upgrades, and at that point you may as well not implement it for aliens) but also doing it like this would bring the game closer to classic, and give important choices, like "what chamber should we get" which not only allows for more variety, but will prepare people for questions like that which come up in classic.

            In adding chambers as upgrades I saw the aliens as being given a disadvantage, so I figured giving the chamber ability in the hive would help balance that, and serve to bring even more understanding to how classic works.

            I don't know if those changes on the alien side would be beyond the grasp of a mod.

            The main thing I would like to do with this idea, is to make combat closer to classic, and get more strategy and teamwork involved.

            Getting marines to chose between armor 1, weapons 1, resupply or motion tracking for thier first levels, and getting aliens to chose between getting one of three chambers, or saving for the hive would give each side 4 reasonable choices and hopefully get more team strategy involved.

            That said, yes I think in general it would work better for the marines, both in how difficult it would be to implement, and how close it is to current combat. For marines you could simply lock down the selection of team upgrades, slow the experience rate, work out how to give team xp, and then have votes that give the upgrade to every marine on the team.

            Giving the effects of chambers without actually placing them (unless you could place them above or below the hive, off the map) and implementing the hive-armor thing might be more difficult.

            Another thing that game up that I forgot to address was that some people brought up the good point that the size of the teams would greatly effect the speed that the team levels would be gained (more kills would = more team levels, and when divided among fewer people would mean fewer individual levels) I'm not entirely convinced that would be a problem, but I don't think it would be too hard to award additional team experience to teams with fewer people, and less experience to teams with more people. if it's a 2 person team, maybe it could get twice the experience as an 8 person team. The experience could just be calcualted at the time of the kill, so if the number of players change it wouldn't effect whats already been done.


            • #7
              Re: Combat Mode

              I guess what I'm going to be wondering next is, how does one go about making a mod, and does anyone here know alot of that stuff already?

              More feedback would be good though.


              • #8
                Re: Combat Mode

                *shakes fist* Zek beat me to it. =P


                • #9
                  Re: Combat Mode

                  Eh... I think that this might make CO a little too team oriented, much like territories. The problem is that we only play CO when there are small numbers of people, and as such we have to be careful to make it so that it's still fun with small numbers. If its 2 marines against 1 alien, for instance, how would the alien aquire team points? He would be at an even more severe disadvantage.

                  My idea would be to have every kill the team gets give the killer the same current XP, and also give the team a small amount that would pool for each person. That would also alleviate the problems that late-joiners might experiance.


                  • #10
                    Re: Combat Mode

                    You mean a small amount of "individual experience" that would be given to all players who joined that team?

                    I wouldn't be much less balanced than 2 on 1 is now. Since there would only be one enemy to kill, if both people were present for every kill they would both be receiving additional experience. It doesn't even matter who gets the kill in 2v1 if the two people stay near each other, and as long as neither one dies.

                    I hadn't thought of the issue of having only one player on a team and thus not being able to get team share, but I was thinking about adjusting the amount given based on the number of people currently on the team, and it might have to be increased more than I thought to help if it's just one person. Either way something like this would probably be needed to combat the great differences in the number of kills in comparing small and large games. 10 kills may take the better part of the game in 1v1 or 2v2, but might happen within the first couple minutes in 8v8 or more.


                    • #11
                      Re: Combat Mode

                      Thats fair, but theres one more thing: CO is simple. Dead simple. Its like one of those little games you play while something is loading. Its a time waster meant to get people together to play classic. If we elevate its complexity, it loses its simplicity. Not much by something like this. Not much at all. But I would still like to keep this simple. If one person wants to get better weapons, and another instead wants better armor, the point of CO is that they both get what they want and can just screw around until 8 people join.




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