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Rage and it's effects on TG.

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  • Rage and it's effects on TG.


    Let's talk about TGNS.

    I think some people on our server today have started to misunderstand what TGNS stands for. You get shot, you die. You get shot, you die. You get shot again, and you die, and you get pissed and you leave the server. This is Rage Quit. This is NOT a TGNS way of life. Rage quitting from a team isn't helping your team. It's not even helping the server by letting more experienced TGNS people in. The only thing you do when you rage quit is hurt your team and your teams chances of winning. This, in turn, causes more rage quits, and eventually the server dies.

    Rage quitting makes me want to hurl. Sure, I do it, but the only time that I do it is when I've lost the past 4 games and have given up on this one. When the marines are surrounding the hive spawn camping and killing it, I may rage quit. What does that hurt? Nothing. But, when the marines are swarming the second hive that's just been put up, and you have died nine times trying to secure it, you don't suck. You aren't getting owned. You are helping your team in succeeding at a hive placement. You are spreading the germs across the map, and taking over the marines. The biggest alien advantage to date is the swarm factor, and of course, you're going to die. You're going to die as a lerk, a fade, a skulk, and an onos. You are going to die as anything that you play on this game, because bullets hurt.

    TGNS has developed it's rules and standards around good games. I understand that there is no rule against raging, but there is a rule against incompotent players ruining the game. If a player feels that someone is ruining the game, be it not dropping a hive and going fade against your teams wishes, not dropping nodes at the start, dropping SC's when MC's have been established as needed, or even spamming the microphone, they have a right to report this to an admin, and the admin will decide if it is interupting the TG way of play enough for that person to get kicked. Some of these examples may be a bit off, but it's late and I'm tired. *note* contacting an admin for these circumstances should only be done after multiple offenses. Do not bother the admin if you're mad because you lost last game because someone didn't drop a hive and went fade. Bother the admin when that person has done it four times now.*end note*

    TG has a standard of play. It's not revolving around skill, or teamwork, or communication, or coordination or anything of the like. It revolves around fun. TGNS players come back every night because they have fun with their friends. And I don't mean childish fun, I mean mature fun. If you're dying too much as a skulk or higher lifeform, don't rage. Go gorge partner with someone and own it up for a while, I promise you'll be smiling at the end of the venture.

    As far as that goes, I'm done on the rage topic. I want to address another issue that has been irking me. I am not complaining, only speaking up. We all want to say it, just as much as the other man beside us does. Spawn camping. As marines, it's different. You spawn, you die. This is only when you're base is being over-run, and there are ways around it. Marines can beacon to get everyone back in action quickly. When in MS, a team of aliens will kill what they can, and destroy what structures they can. As aliens, we don't rely on structures as much as marines do, so we don't have as many. When a group of marines comes into the hive, and the only thing they are doing is killing us off as we spawn while the rest of their team builds the map, it bothers me.

    "It's okay as long as one person is hitting the hive." No, it's not. It's okay as long as the direct goal of the marines in the hive is to take the hive down and secure the area. If you are holding your ammo waiting for someone to spawn, then you aren't doing your job of cleaning the infestation. You should be relying on a team mate who is freshly reloaded to watch your back, and worrying about shooting the hive.

    I see it sometimes. Four marines in the hive, one is shooting it and the others are standing there ready to shoot the floor when a skulk spawns. The image I have in my head is of the Cargo hive in ns_nothing, I believe it is. The big room with the boxes and all that open space. Sure, it's cool to kill us off as we spawn, but do it as a team oriented around killing the hive, not killing us.

    All you are doing when you spawn camp aliens while one person shoots the hive is ruining the game for us.

    We don't do it. We can't. There's just too much stuff to kill in MS when we're in it, so we all have to hit something. The way I see it, spawn camping in a hive is exploiting a weakness in the game. You only have one target untill another pops up, and you don't want to be out of ammo when they do. That's your problem. If you are out of ammo, you are commended because you did as much damage as you could to our hive, to stop us from spawning at it. When you save your ammo and shoot only us when we spawn, you are looked down upon, because you are simply ruining our day and not even trying to eradicate us as a species on your planet.*note* one person saving ammo while four other marines shoot the hive is okay. Four people saving ammo while one person shoots the hive is NOT okay *end note*

    I'm not complaining, I am only stating what I believe.

    Please, no flames.

    Yer Mom /O>

    To all but me is the look given but never received. My heart sinks faster and faster every time I look into them, yet I do not understand their controling power on my soul. - W11114m W45h1n670n

  • #2
    Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

    Spawn camping is legal... for two reasons: it's typically remedied by calling your team home to kill the camper, and the marine camping you is providing cover for the marines elsewhere securing other objectives.

    If no other objectives exist, marines must focus on the only objective: the hive (otherwise, you then -- and only then -- contact an admin). But, meanwhile, you get to have your ass handed to you while they secure whichever of those other objectives (nodes, other hives, etc) they care to, and then they'll be along to destroy your hive. No, it's not fun, but, fortunately, it's rare.

    I can't remember the last time I took administrative action against spawn camping. Short of the entire marine team spawn camping, it's always possible (nevermind likely) that another objective, somewhere, is being captured in the meantime.

    TGNS isn't driven by "fun," as everyone defines his own fun, and everyone does NOT define what drives TGNS. TGNS is driven by those very things you dismissed: teamwork, and communication, and coordination and anything of the like.

    But TGNS is also strongly driven by something more abstract: camaraderie. People come here to play with friends, with whom they share mutual respect and selfless teamwork.

    Rage quitting is disgusting, as you're telling every other player that your interest in their company is only as great as your ability to succeed. But hey. This is life. Sometimes, people -- even good people -- do disgusting things. Rage quitting, like F4ing before the game is over, is terribly selfish and rude.

    I have more domestic interruptions to my gameplay these days than I used to, and I don't hesitate to drop the game to tend to something around the house that requires my immediate and unplanned attention (my intermittant AFK moments as COMM). One recent incident took me off the server immediately after I died as some sort of expensive lifeform. In HLSW (admin tool), I later saw the text chat accusing Wyz of "rage quit."

    It disgusted me to even be associated with that. I work to help regulars realize when it's a pattern with them, as it disgusts me (and others) no less to observe it in my friends.
    Last edited by Pokerface; 02-11-2006, 11:28 AM.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.


    • #3
      Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

      Yes, we play to have fun. If someone isn't having fun and is getting angry at other people on the server or just angry in general and can't controll it, then it might be in the best interests of everyone if that person left to cool off.

      Yes, dying nine times in a row as a skulk doesn't necessarily mean you suck, but, depending on how you died, it could mean you are playing poorly and/or thoughtlessly. Dying while taking down RTs and other buildings or while in a coordinated ambush or rush is one thing. Dying while trying to solo a group of marines is another matter. Dying as a fade, lerk, or onos is not helping your team and should be avoided.

      People who ruin games intentionally should be punished. Players who ruin games unintentionally should be educated. Players who can't or won't interact or work with the team should be removed.

      Several of the server rules are in place to promote and demand communication and teamwork. These, as well as a "cool" community, are the most important requirements for many of us to have fun playing the game.

      I don't view spawncamping as a weakness in the game, but rather a weakness in the alien team. The marines are usually either delaying alien progress to gain a resource or tech advantage, delaying alien progress to coordinate a hive assault, or in the process of killing your hive. If they are doing this then the alien team either had inferior teamwork inferior skill, or both, and deserve to lose. If the marines are intentionally delaying the hive death when they have the means to kill it then that is another matter. Damaging a hive you can't hope to kill so you can get eaten by a freshly spawned skulk is not typically smart or commendable.

      P.S. paranoid and Wyzcrak are nerds who write posts too quickly :P :P :P


      • #4
        Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

        paranoid and DON (for a "nerd," I sure don't have robots in my avatar) have it right regarding the spawn camping.

        And I also agree that, if you can't control your anger, you should leave.

        It is the case, though, that many people don't leave suddenly out of "rage" at all, but out of a need to be entertained. They've played their lifeform, died, and now they need to find something else to entertain themselves. That really irritates me.

        If you play here, you play for the team. Sure, we all have to leave suddenly sometimes. Sure, anger is a good reason to go take a break. But it shouldn't be a noticable pattern in any of us that we leave the game when things look bleak.

        If you're going to play the game, do your best to play it entirely.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.


        • #5
          Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

          Rage quiting is an over used term, I'm sure almost everyone has left a server when they are playing badly. Also people have the choice to leave a server so you can't really blame anyone for disconnecting, even if the team is losing badly.

          As for spawn camping, to restate the posts above me points, its part of the game, keep marines out of the hive if you don't want to be spawn camped. This may require some bit of communication on the aliens part. In fact I have seen less spawn camping on TG than other servers mainly becuase of the player count (lower) and the teamwork.


          • #6
            Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

            I'm sure we have all seen a scenario like this. All or most of the alien team is dead. (Say, no more than two skulks out of an 8v8 game) Marines are in the hive shooting aliens as they spawn, there are at least enough of them there to kill any skulk before it can do anything.

            This almost invariably means the aliens are going to lose. Unless the marines all decide to leave the aliens alone, team kill each other, or otherwise fail to act like any semi-decent player skill wise, they are not going to screw this up.

            Lets say it takes 5 mintues before they finished off the hive. You were being spawn camped right? Wrong. Though 5 minutes may be extreme, killing a hive is a long process for lmgs, expecially unupgraded ones. If aliens have another hive in the process of coming up, marines are going to want to start taking that one down while the active one is being destroyed.

            Features of the game that make this more aggrivating for aliens than it is for marines:

            1) More marines can simultatiusly attack one thing than aliens can. If you have three skulks, expecially if you have any more than that, it's very unlikely they will all be able to attack one thing (marine or structure) without biting each other at least a little bit. 4 skulks might fit on an ip (hard to manage well), whereas 8 marines could all shoot at one spawning skulk with ease. (vanilla 1 hive skulks health totals 90 damage, or 9 unupgraded lmg bullets.)

            2) Aliens don't have the option of recycleing. By the TGNS rules, the commander is allowed to recycle the ips, effectively ending the game whenever they want. I personally only do this as a commander if I see the chair is going to be destroyed before the ips, and I don't want to trust the aliens to kill the ips quickly. Other commanders do this much more readily. As an alien all you can do is wait it out.

            3) Sense of futility. This is a bit more of a psychological thing. Aliens will often start by trying to kill important marine structures (obs, armory, arms lab). Marines who spawn usually at least have a chance to react in some way, firing off at least a couple bullets. At the point marines are dieing instantly on spawn, it's usually because 2-3 aliens are hitting each ip, which also indicates the game will be over in 10 seconds. Aliens on the other hand always spawn one at a time, and often don't have the opportunity to get close enough to any marine to even get one bite in. The only hope is escaping the hive, only to die of hunger anyway. You cannot expect people to react well to the inability to do anything. For the time I was an admin on a TFC server, I learned that the best way to deal with players who were repetative problems (I don't believe in perm bans) was to make them unable to play while on the server, until they disconnected themselves. It's easy for someone to ignore reason in the heat of a game. Kicking people who are very persistant and intent on annoying you will not get you anywhere. With one bury command (for those of you unaware, it would make them stuck in the ground and thus unable to move and fight) they immediately start paying attention to whatever you are trying to say because they have been pulled out of the game. They are no longer caught up in the game, they are sitting back and watching it. If they don't hear and respond to what you say, you don't take it off, they leave out of frustration. When someone makes the concious decision to leave, they get to set thier own temp ban time.

            Ok that analogy was longer than I intended, but to summarize the point: Aliens who end up unable to do anything are forced out of the game mentally and become observers. This in and of itself is a very frustrating state to be in psychologically. Imagine an admin kept switching your team to spectator whenever you tried to join aliens and spawn. Yes, anger is one of the many responses that you would expect to see.

            I'm not trying to say rage is alright. I'm merely trying to explain why this phenomena is exclusive to aliens, and that there are some fundamental aspects of the game's design and human psychology which help explain the amount of anger and frustration.

            People can and should be expected to rise above these emotions, but do try to understand where they are coming from.
            Last edited by Irish Pirate; 02-11-2006, 01:26 PM.


            • #7
              Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

              I guess my only comment for spawn camping is what do you expect a marine in the hive to do? Look at a skulk who just spawned and let him run over to you and kill you because they are complaining about spawn camping? Like they stated above, if your team lacks in scouting so badly that it allows a marine to walk into your hive you deserve to get spawn camped. Aliens do the same thing in the marine base and its not quite as often but that does go both ways and the rare times that an alien won't pull off of a structure to kill a spawning marine would be if an AA or proto is at 1 or 2 bars of health and its a sacrifice to get it down, that hurts the marines more in most games. I don't see much of any problems with the way TGNS is played which is why its the only server I pub on. Some people do rage quit but I don't think it could affect the game in a huge way at all. Aliens res gets spread out so its not like its a complete loss other than a sour player.


              • #8
                Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                Originally posted by Chiller
                Aliens do the same thing in the marine base and its not quite as often but that does go both ways and the rare times that an alien won't pull off of a structure to kill a spawning marine would be if an AA or proto is at 1 or 2 bars of health and its a sacrifice to get it down, that hurts the marines more in most games.
                The only time a marine dies instantly on spawn like aliens do are when the aliens are hitting the ips. Any marine that spawns in a base thats under attack has a few moments to fire bullets into whatever is moving off of the armory/<insert structure here>, and has a significantly better chance of killing something than an alien spawning.

                The game doesn't end when the marines lose thier important structure. The only thing truely comparable in terms of hopelessness that the marines experience is when the aliens are ammasing outside of MS, waiting on third hive/chambers/life forms/whatever they need to finish the job. In these cases, marines are still spawning and able to shoot (in most cases shooting is futile, but still, it gives you somethign to do, and a rare shot at killing that gorge or skulk) and move around at will, though thier lifespan may not be as long as normal. They also have the option of recycling the ips and ending it right there.

                Aliens can't do the same thing, it's fundamentally different. You don't see two-three focus aliens sitting on each ip, waiting to kill every marine that spawns (Can't hit the ip, you might not be able to bite in time to kill the marine before he moves) while the other aliens go and clear out the third hive lock or double nodes, or whatever.

                EDIT: I do agree in most cases for aliens in this scenario (everyone dead/no more than two people alive) one person quitting will not impact the game. You only spawn one at a time, and if you have already given up to the point of not trying to move when you spawn, you are only bumping everyone else up in the que, and giving what little res you have to the other players. Unfortunately, this is not the case when more people start to leave. The game ends instantly. This would be the closest equivalent of recycling ips aliens could do, I personally think niether should be allowed because people deserve a chance to finish thier game. It has made me very sad as an alien when I have spent all this time dropping chambers for everyone, and then when I finally start gestating to fight marine start, they recycle all the ips and it ends immediately. I very rarely go higher life form, the only time I'm not spending my res on structures is when we are about to win, or we have so many nodes I have 50 extra res anyway. It would feel the same way for marines. The commander just researched jps. Marines are cycling out to get jps. All the aliens f4 because marines are getting jps and hmgs, and you rob them of the fun of winning the game.


                • #9
                  Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                  Two thoughts:

                  "Rage quitting" usually happens after dude has died as higher lifeform, or perhaps after utter disgust with his team's performance (the two may seem related to the guy leaving after dying as a lifeform). Indeed, I wouldn't associate it so much with spawn camping at all, as that usually (yeah, not always) means the game is about to end.

                  The player "rage quitting" does so out of boredom more often than he does out of rage. He's lost his lifeform, or he's about to endure a 10 to 15 minute-long loss, and you guys alone, without the "win," aren't enough to entertain him, and so he leaves.

                  Chiller's right: one player leaving doesn't do so much to ruin a game ("rage quit" or not). "Rage quitting," though, when it's driven by selfish boredom and not the responsible "take a minute to cool down" we've already mentioned, does hurt community, as it clearly says to anyone paying attention: "I wasn't here to play with you guys. I was here to win with you guys, and I'm not interested in being here if I'm not going to win."
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.


                  • #10
                    Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                    Interesting discussion. But I cringe from the implication that another rule needs to be created. I think Paranoid and Wyzcrak are right-minded about this, and you can't possibly hope to cover all the potential scenarios with a blanket statement.

                    People quit sometimes. Sometimes they do it because they're mad. It happens. Move on. If we try to outlaw everything that MIGHT be unacceptable in CERTAIN situations, we'll be connecting to play police instead of connecting to play NS.


                    • #11
                      Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                      I have many a thing come up in the middle of game. I normally quit right after a death. (best place :D) I normally do not say anything. I do hope that this would not be mistaken for a rage quit. I only had that problem in one game. Which I no longer play. The game was decided in the first 5 minutes and took 30-40 minutes to win (25-35 minutes of losing and not much you could do, this is also assuming no massive screw up). But that is neither here nor there.
                      I do fear a blanket statement. There have been many bans on OldF due to blanket statements. (Most were deserved, but some I did not agree with)


                      • #12
                        Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                        When I was on 56k, it always bothered me when I got disconnected right after losing alot because people often assume you do it out of anger.

                        If they actually leave there is little you can do both in the way of proving they did it out of anger, and punishing them for it afterward. It might be disrespectful, but frowning at the people who do it is probably as far as this can (and should) go.

                        Anyone ever made the decision to stay just because you don't want to look like you are quitting out of rage? Well if there was a rule against it, you might have to. Sometimes the middle of the game is when you want to leave for reasons outside of the progress of the game.

                        People disconnect from winning teams too.


                        • #13
                          Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                          As a regular, SM, an Admin, but especially as Community Members... we have the ability to help "choose" what players populate the servers. The points system is a very powerful tool, you can kick unregistered players, you can keep good people here by donating points to them, and you can help EDUCATE players.

                          We don't need you hounding anyone, but it doesn't hurt to tell a player the next time around that when he quit it really hurt the team. That he could have given the team/server a heads up. Be polite, be respectful, but you CAN be honest :D


                          • #14
                            Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                            I actually would compare the alien hive to a extra-tough phase gate, for this particular debate. Let's just play make believe for the sake of argument, here. Let's say the phase gate has 4x as many hps as normal. Let's also say the marines have at least 2 IPs. After a tough fight, you've managed to kill a large amount of marines, who were shooting your hive. Now you and 4 other skulks descend on the phase gate. Keep in mind this gate has 4x as many hps as normal. How would you handle this, given time to think it through? I believe I would have 3 skulks surround the gate, with 2 standing 5 feet back.

                            Well why not all 5 on the pg? Simple.

                            Friendly fire.
                            Jumping marines with a powerful attack (any gun vs a skulk that is not facing him).

                            Well, thats obvious. What isn't quite as obvious is those are the same types of threats that marines face. I want to use the same cargo hive that Yer Mom mentioned from ns_LOST (not nothing :P). Anyways, imagine standing at either the bottom of the freight lift or the top of the other ramp. You cannot see the hive from here. Imagine you have a combination of lmgs and shotguns. What can you shoot from here? Absolutely nothing. Except, of course, the occasional skulk. Shooting at a lerk will probably get you killed by a powerful attack (any non-gorge vs a reloading marine. Not shooting a lerk will get you slowly gassed to death, should you stay in either spot. So you make your way in, gas flying, gorges spitting, and skulks spawning in crazy corners or directly in front of you. To get in shotgun range you truly have put yourself in the mouth of madness. How many times have you seen marines with heavies and jetpacks have trouble gunning down that hive on a pub? Granted, its a pub.. but my point is, it's not an easy hive to gun down or siege down even, if the aliens are prepared and using good teamwork.

                            Quickly compare that to the front of alpha. If marines are entrenched in the front of alpha hive, there is no excuse for them not shooting it. Straight shot from 30 yards, with only a small door for skulks to try to defend through. Much more difficult to see spawning aliens. If aliens decide to go around, its a nice long walk through paranois.

                            On a side note, commanders must think realistically when issuing a 'shoot only the hive' order. If its a suicide run, EVEN IF the hive goes down, you may have cost yourself the game. The above scenario with the 5 skulks? Now thats a reality, cept u don't have a super-PG. Wouldn't it have been better to let a couple people kill skulks? (skulks only tho)

                            "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                            "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious


                            • #15
                              Re: Rage and it's effects on TG.

                              Actually, I would probably recommend having as many skulsk on the pg as would fit, but having them prepared to break away quickly. Five skulks are not physically capable of all biting a marine at once unless the marine cooperates with you. I would leave one or two biting ocnstantly, the marines spawning in will either toss thier nades or fire off some shots, the skulks actively seeking them will distract the marines from shooting the more defenceless pg biters, and the fight will contine. This would only work because skulks don't have to reload. If a skulk ran out of adrenaline while hitting the pg (with 5 skulks hitting a pg, even if it had 4x health they wouldn't run out of adren) the correct thing to do would be to back up and wait for more adren. At that time you would effectively be covering from father back.

                              Also, aliens don't get attacks that let them wipe out multiple marines like grenades. If they have xeno then it's not the same camping situation. 3 are spawning at a time instead of 1.

                              One grenade no longer kills a skulk (I don't think anyway).

                              At any rate, I agree that the conditions of the location make a huge difference. Imagine if that pg was in a spot where marines could easily reach line of sight of it from a distance away. Easy for a couple to sneak up and wipe out all the skulks, or at least make them scatter while more tele in. Skulks would be needed to guard the area up there too.

                              And don't forget about the vent in Alpha! That is, if you don't mind running past the doorway the marines are shooting out of, and having them shoot you as you come out of the vent anyway.




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