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  • Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

    Wyzcrak has said that he doesn't like Gorges hiding in res nodes, but keeps forgetting to actually make a rule about it. He's also said he's willing to be convinced otherwise. So, discuss!

    A little history: Way Back When, in 1.04 days, it was common for a gorge to stand inside an RT as he was building it, as a way to hide. The RT offered no protection against bullets, but did obscure 95% of the gorges visible model, so a marine that came up on him might not notice the gorge at all.

    At some point, the height of the collision hulls on RTs increased slightly, so gorges (and marines) can no longer jump on them without assistance. Also, during 3.0 development, the hitbox (very different from the collision hull) was changed so that every part of the model can be hit, instead of just a small cylinder near the base. The hitbox grew a lot more than the collision hull did, so now if a gorge (or any other lifeform) stands "inside" the top of the RT, most enemy attacks will hit the RT instead of the alien. This makes the lifeform inside near invulnerable, and thus the idea that it should be disallowed here on TG.

    Personally I miss the ability to hide your model inside the RT, but if its going to come along with hiding your hitbox inside the RT as well, then I can live without it.

    Comments?

  • #2
    Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

    There doesn't need to be a rule for this IMO, nor is this problem so widespread and devestating it needs to be addressed. Here's a good discussion thread on the cal forums about this very subject:

    http://forums.caleague.com/showthread.php?t=17130

    If there was a rule against this, would you also require ban any other lifeforms (including eggs) and marines from hiding in RTs? Or just gorges? Egging in an RT in your hive is usually a better option than in front of the hive in the hives where you can't egg on top.

    A marine shouldn't be able to take on gorge alone now anyways with the self heal, so bring more teamates and this problem is solved.
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    • #3
      Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

      I think it's easy enough to declare that no one, at all, should be resting atop an alien node.

      It's only relevant, though, with a gorge, as he's the only guy who can prevent you from doing what it takes to get to the lifeform atop the alien node: kill the alien node.

      It goes to balance. You can have TWO marines drilling a gorge atop a node, and he won't die. There's no reason that it should take three marines OR sacrificing your range to kill a gorge.
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      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

        Also note if you are above the gorge you can hit all your shots on him, so for a res node like cargo on ns_tanith all you need to do it go on the boxes and shoot down on the gorge.

        Most of my views on this issue are in that thread on the cal forums, but then again those views are all coming from a cal match stand point.

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        • #5
          Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

          Whether or not it's theoretically possible to kill the gorge in the node, it's clearly an exploit. It wasn't a big deal when the nodes didn't use their hotboxes, but now that the RT actually shields you from bullets it's virtually impossible to kill a Gorge with any minimal amount of support. Working your way into the RT with him and knifing is not plausible when there's a skulk or more in the room.

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          • #6
            Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

            When I see a gorge in a res node, I get scared and type kill in consol

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            • #7
              Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

              If a gorge is standing inside teh model and unable to get hit, he's exploiting the physics of the game. Isn't that actually covered in teh TG Primer?

              3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing superior real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging advantages provided to players by the design of the game engine.
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              • #8
                Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                A question that I have in this matter is that can the gorge spit and hit something well on top of the the rt, or not?

                Even then it mostly a moot point.

                The gorge can hide behind the rt, just as easy as on top of it, it makes no differance.
                You have to get close to hit the gorge in both cases, so why bother making a rule, that just cause the marines to have to do the same thing anyway? It would be much simper to not bother.

                Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                There's no reason that it should take three marines OR sacrificing your range to kill a gorge.
                Yes there is, it called skill, if you have marines that can not hit an onos with a hmg and autoaim turned on, then a gorge is safe.

                A skulk can take down a Heavy train in theory (maybe with only parasite), a gorge can too (only using healspray), but that is crazy.
                A marine can knife down a team of onos, and a hive with out dieing, in theory.

                I don't think that these have happen, I do know of some skulks who can somethings get a heavy or 2 when aguest more noobish players, but it not common.

                There is many a reason why it can be that the gorge can beat 3 marines, just not common on our server.
                Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

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                • #9
                  Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                  Originally posted by Darkilla
                  If a gorge is standing inside teh model and unable to get hit, he's exploiting the physics of the game. Isn't that actually covered in teh TG Primer?
                  If we go by the TG primer, that means we would have to ban strafe jumping, wall walking, scripting, bunnyhopping and countless other "exploits" that have been worked into the ns gameplay and accepted over the years.

                  I sometimes wonder why TG even hosts NS, because the basic backbone of the game goes against almost every single point raised in the TG primer.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                    I say it's an exploit, I've used it to defend subjunction (the node outside comp core?) node with great success. You can spit from on top of the res node making you a formidable turret with about 2000 hp is it? I don't think it's a huge issue, I even think it's kinda neat. But I also think it's clearly an exploit.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                      The reason the things you mentioned are tolerated is two-fold:

                      a) they're a pain in the ass to manage administratively
                      b) they really do very little to gameplay balance

                      I'm not convinced either is true for gorges in nodes.

                      The "exploits" that are prohibited from TGNS, for the most part (if not entirely), either create a balance problem or are easily removed from gameplay, administratively, without the gameplay taking a serious hit. The gorge in the node, arguably, creates a balance problem, and it is easily removed, administratively, without the gameplay taking a serious hit.

                      I don't know how you explain away Dark's post, but that's what I'm looking for at the moment.
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                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                        I have only witnessed gorges hiding/building ontop of an alien RT maybe 1-2 times a week. Needless to say most of the time its done by a non-registered member, and almost always never involves actual combat in the area, (meaning the person doing it must enjoy sitting on nodes while building it or just happened to be there). I dont see any reason why an official rule needs to be made about it as long as most of the regulars know enough to call it when its seen. Then what about mine ladders and building boosts?

                        As for tinker's post that depends on the situation for marines. It doesnt take a lot of bullets from a few marines to blow away the RT. Then what, your a dead gorge and the RT is destroyed. Otherwise you have to healspray the RT therefore making your "turret" useless as your adren is used to heal.

                        In anycase I think leaving it to regulars to warn others would be satisfactory as it isn't something that occurs as often as it is thought as to be.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                          I, too, don't want a rule for something that just doesn't happen that often.

                          My experience is that I see it at least once a night, which is frequency enough for me.

                          Perhaps others' observations differ.
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                          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                            I never have seen this happen, maybe because you are often commander wyz, you see it a lot.
                            It makes little differnce to anything, the gorge can healspray just as well behind the node as on top, if you want to stop allowing the gorge to go on top, you might disallow mine latters (marines can't be killed by skulks, mines kill them).

                            Truefully, wallwalking is used a lot more often, it a know bug.

                            Can you provide demos of gorges who realy have any impact due to being on top?
                            The gorge is hurting his team more by not going skulk to kill the marines.

                            It only 1 res tower that a gorge will be on, the aliens will have more often than not at least 2 others up else were, often without a gorge, so go kill one of those. Or wander into the hive and knife the chambers, that will pull the gorge off very fast.
                            Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

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                            • #15
                              Re: Gorges Hiding in Res Nodes

                              I really think that paranoid is right on this. The gorge is not invulnerable at all. There are several options for killing him. Also, with the new patch, marines absolutely DO have to give up range to kill a gorge, atop a node or otherwise. Let's face it, this was never an issue before the self-healing gorge.

                              Like Lazyeye said, it all depends on your angle. I would feel completely different about the issue if one could not fire at the gorge from a LEVEL or above-level surface. By that I mean if the marine's view is at the same altitude as the gorge (or above of course), you should be able to hit it.

                              I don't really see the exloit, here. I mean a bit, but nothing out of the 'norm' for NS. So the aliens have been given an advantage for protecting nodes. I call it bad design, but not an exploit. I mean, if you outlaw this you might as well outlaw marines crouching in corners so that aliens bite the walls instead of them (not to gain range). Or marines pushing up against a node to see right through it, or standing atop an armory (this hides part of his hitbox), or dozens of other little exploity things that players pick up as they become better players.

                              Don't get me wrong, I think they should change it. I just don't think it should be against the rules. Natural Selection is a game where a 10 foot alien with sword-arms can magically float across the room, kill 5 beefed up marines, and then die because a door closed on him. Basically, there's nothing about a gorge standing inside/atop one of his RT's that defies logic anymore than the above statement.

                              I suppose one could argue that it makes the game less balanced, but while I agree, I think the balance lately has been actually pretty nice, with the new gorge and all. I'd be more in favor of him being able to heal fast enough to allow him to survive from place to place, but not heal and be back in the fight before a marine can even reload, that's just silly. If the gorge's self-healing power was reduced to, say, 50% of what it is now, the whole RT thing would really not be an issue at all, I think.


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