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  • systematic RFK denial

    So we're playing on ns_lost last night, and I notice Purge repeatedly hopping into the pit at Eternal Overlook to avoid being killed when aliens came near.

    I ask Purge over voicecomm to stop doing that, as RFK is part of the game's design. He offers some rational by which he prefers jumping in the pit over whatever I was expecting from him.

    Slayer's on our team, so he joins the exchange by offering that RFK denial is part of the game's design as well. I can't say I've ever seen it that way, but I decide then and there that it might be a good discussion for the forums.

    Jumping "into the pit" during the heart of a game (do not bring up endgame in this conversation -- it's not relevant) is fun from time to time, sure (you've all seen me do it), but I frown on any regularly premeditated reliance on a map feature (or anything else, really) to systematically deny the opposition RFK, as that RFK was designed by the development team as an integral part of the team's economy.

    One could argue that "one guy jumping into pits isn't going to impact the other team's economy," or "very few rooms allow for this on any given map," but isn't "just one guy doing it is ok" or "there aren't that many times you can do it" pretty decent justifications for occasional, novel RFK denial and pretty weak justifications for any such that is systematic?

    Thoughts?
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    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    Re: systematic RFK denial

    Completely disagree wyz. With the way you are thinking the same could be said that RTs (a map feature, integral part of the team's economy) should be untouchable.

    Sacrificing yourself to meet an objective is a well practiced and encouraged tactic, and the denial of RFK is also a valid tactic. /kill is still a feature of the game, as is map designed areas that will do the same.

    more on this later, class time.
    USAR

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    • #3
      Re: systematic RFK denial

      RFK gives the other team money. Res nodes give the other team money.

      Destroying res nodes is one way to hurt the other team's economy. Systematic denial of RFK is merely another way?
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: systematic RFK denial

        Originally posted by Wyzcrak
        RFK gives the other team money. Res nodes give the other team money.

        Destroying res nodes is one way to hurt the other team's economy. Systematic denial of RFK is merely another way?
        I'd say yes, when done in the context of the map. /kill is a bit too exploitative I think, but if there's a pit, and jumping in it could mean the difference between a hive at 3:00 and a hive at 3:30, I'll consider leaping.

        The tradeoff, of course, is that you'll be sitting in the spawnqueue, which might be a bigger loss than the 1-3 res you were about to hand the other team.
        [volun2]
        NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
        Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
        <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
        <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

        Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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        • #5
          Re: systematic RFK denial

          I really don't think its a big issue for only 1-3 res on the alien side, while like poker said, they just clog up the spawn queue which is more detrimental to themselves. Now if the commander was telling them NOT to jump into the pit and to hold position, that would be a different story.

          Jumping into pits as a systematic way of RFK denial is not on the same level as denying res nodes for their economy, and a rarity at that.

          Although using /kill before your killed\devoured just to deny them the kill is poor sportsmanship and I really hate it when I've seen people do that, although its been a long time. That would be a better example of denying RFK on a consistent basis.
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          • #6
            Re: systematic RFK denial

            Poor sportsmanship. I guess that's it.

            Yeah, jumping in the pit every once in a while is fine. haha, and all that.

            But, when you plan to jump in the pit, unconditionally, once your success seems unlikely, I think you're in the same spirit as recycling the IPs or biting the hive: you're taking from the opposition the kill he's earned.

            Again... every once in a while.. haha... but once it's systematic.. once the novelty is gone.. then it just becomes a stunt.
            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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            • #7
              Re: systematic RFK denial

              Originally posted by Wyzcrak
              But, when you plan to jump in the pit, unconditionally, once your success seems unlikely, I think you're in the same spirit as recycling the IPs or biting the hive: you're taking from the opposition the kill he's earned.
              I disagree.

              The trick to this whole scenario is that you require a pit. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two possible res nodes in the game where this comes into play: Eternal Requiem on ns_lost and MAYBE Powersilo on ns_caged.

              In those rooms, part of earning the kill is navigating the room better than your opponent, and if they bite the dust before you're able to kill them, you've been beaten.

              Note the distinct difference between this and /kill: with the console command, at ANY time, at ANY place, you can deny that RFK. There's no beating the opponent to be had there.

              To me, this isn't a haha-factor in any way shape or form. It's a partial-victory thing: I've still earned the kill (unless the marine is leaping in the complete absence of an alien), but I've not received the RFK for the process.
              [volun2]
              NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
              Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
              <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
              <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

              Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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              • #8
                Re: systematic RFK denial

                In the past I've use the pits to ensure that my body dosn't feed hungry aliens when I'm well and truly boned. I view this as a valid tactic, but I don't think you should set yourself up by a pit for the sole purpose of hurling yourself in when you hear the click-click of little feet.

                I think the use of the kill command to deny RFK is unquestionably exploitive. It seems to me that anytime you would use a 15 second delay kill, you would have at least a slim chance of getting medpacked to safety.
                Rm 14:2 NIV
                One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

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                • #9
                  Re: systematic RFK denial

                  Originally posted by Tempest
                  In the past I've use the pits to ensure that my body dosn't feed hungry aliens when I'm well and truly boned. I view this as a valid tactic, but I don't think you should set yourself up by a pit for the sole purpose of hurling yourself in when you hear the click-click of little feet.

                  I think the use of the kill command to deny RFK is unquestionably exploitive. It seems to me that anytime you would use a 15 second delay kill, you would have at least a slim chance of getting medpacked to safety.
                  I could have typed up a response to the original post but Tempest here has captured my thoughts perfectly.


                  Another form (albeit rare) of RFK denial that should probably be examined here is the TK request (asking a teammate to put a couple bullets in you when it would be cheaper to just respawn rather than spend your own team's res on meds and ammo together, not to mention the easy-RFK an enemy would get from you in your defenseless state). It's always seemed logical in-game but now that this topic has been brought up I'm not that confident that it belongs here.

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                  • #10
                    Re: systematic RFK denial

                    We stopped the end-round TK silliness to reinforce the idea that TKs have no home here. I say a TK is a TK.
                    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                    • #11
                      Re: systematic RFK denial

                      Not an NS player, but why isn't this "gaming the game"?

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                      • #12
                        Re: systematic RFK denial

                        Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                        We stopped the end-round TK silliness to reinforce the idea that TKs have no home here. I say a TK is a TK.
                        You do say that, but in the past I've never seen this behavior discouraged when it popped up.

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                        • #13
                          Re: systematic RFK denial

                          In the past, on severs with 0-seconds delay on /kill, I've seen people bind /kill to a key so they can suicide whenever they are about to die, universally denying RFK. THAT is poor sportsmanship, and there is virtually no way to counter it.

                          Jumping into a pit, on the other hand, is very counterable. Don't fight them next to a pit, or get behind them, or if you're really hungry for that res, follow them into the pit (always funny to watch). Furthermore, it requires a fair amount of planning on the part of the marine (or the alien--dont forget they can pit suicide to deny RFK too.) In addition, it is only possible in a very limited number of places (the list is longer than 2 if you're willing to consider non-res-node locations, but still pretty short).

                          Finally, it is at least somewhat realistic. Compare a man suddenly dropping dead for no apparent reason (/kill) to a man dieing because he fell down a long shaft. And even the motivation isn't impossible to understand. No, a "real" TSA marine wouldn't have the promise of respawning to take the edge off death...but a quick death in a pit may still be preferable to some of the horrors he faces at the hands (or teeth) of the aliens. I mean, people jumped out the upper floors of the Twin Towers with no hope of making it down alive. Is it that hard to think someone might do the same to avoid being literally eaten alive by an Onos?

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                          • #14
                            Re: systematic RFK denial

                            I've before asked folks to not proceed when they announced plans to go about this.
                            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                            • #15
                              Re: systematic RFK denial

                              Neato post, Kero.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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