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  • Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

    *Warning not a complaint, more of a point*

    Yes the marines are theoretically one man down, but that one man is the most influential person.

    When have you seen the aliens win without a problem? Not at all really.
    When have you seen the marines win without a problem? Many times indeed.

    The gorge.
    Just as ineffective as any thing on the ground. All it can do is build. Which isnít that cheap or easy with the introduction of the 2.0 res system? Early game you need as many gorges as you can too which actually makes the alien team down about 3 compared to the marines. Heal spray has been weekend so much as well because of the lack of vertical. A skulk can jump over heal spray now.

    Marines have every advantage at any time of the game. Fast moving, phase gates that build very quickly. Turret factories that upgrade faster than any coordination between the aliens can be made.

    Spawn rate.
    Marine advantage, endless amount of ips can be made which makes for almost no spawn wait. And everyone knows about the aliens.

    Protection.
    Aliens have no way to protect anything they build early game or even mid game. Skulks donít have much of a chance even against vanilla marines because once a marine gets to a node the #1 ability of a skulks is gone, element of surprise.
    Offensive towers are almost useless now unless there are 4 or more. Which can only kill with line of sight unlike the 40 res for a seiging operation that can be recycled?
    Hives are quite weak as well.

    The marines on the other hand have turrets, electrification and motion. Yes I know the aliens have sent of fear but that has limited range and costs about 80 res + time for the hive to go up.

    Electrification is just insane now, marines barely pay attention to nodes, and they just build them and walk away. While the aliens have a POS skulk that canít do much against marines attacking their nodes.
    The electrified nodes are able to do 40 damage every couple of seconds. When anything is electrified a skulk is useless. All a marine team needs to do is hit every node and electrify so that the aliens are starving for res and they canít get any higher life forms or hives. Upgrades are kind of pointless early game because regular marines have no problem with regular skulks.

    Remember when seiging took a good 5 minutes to do with the upgrades and the expense of sieges. Now they are disposable outposts that cost little. Personally I believe sieging operations should take as long as it takes a hive to build.

    Also marine upgrades are over powering. With level 3 armor it takes 4 bites with a skulk.

    Yes this has to do a lot with the design of the game but still.
    Last edited by Emanon; 02-24-2004, 11:23 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

    In all honesty, I dont think there is a legitamate place to put the extra man... the extra man should spectate until another player joins, or one quits...

    Emanon brings up some points that, be honest now, everyone has felt at one time or another.... the higher lifeforms are the Aliens' saving grace, but thats only If you're exceptionally good at blinking around... and even then lvl 3 shotguns can decimate a fade.

    While we're at it, if Onos' are shunned in small-games, Why shouldnt lvl 3 weapon/armor upgrades? I'd like to be able to survive a shot or two when in battle, compared to the marines 4 bites.

    These issues need to be really thought about for a while. I'm always up for a good debate.
    RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

    Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

    I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

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    • #3
      Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

      Excellent presntation of thoughts. I'm impressed.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      When have you seen the aliens win without a problem? Not at all really.
      When have you seen the marines win without a problem? Many times indeed.
      I have seen the two sides win a seemingly equal number of games with marines having, typically, the extra player.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      The gorge.
      Just as ineffective as any thing on the ground. All it can do is build.
      Surely your frustration has caused you to exaggerate. The gorge can do more than build.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Turret factories that upgrade faster than any coordination between the aliens can be made.
      Simply put.. false. Faster than any coordination happens typically? Maybe. But hey... if the alien team is fat and slow, they're going to lose. Typically, seige doesn't happen before the seven minute mark. And if you have even a decent alien team, hive two is allowing you to drop MCs as the same seven minute mark passes. Any alien, with the exception of the Onos, can arrive at any location of a known map in less than 20 (more like 10 or 15) seconds. If your alien team is in the zone and responding together, that will crush any new outpost the marines are trying to hurriedly establish.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Spawn rate.
      Marine advantage, endless amount of ips can be made which makes for almost no spawn wait.
      In fact... Marines can pay the price of armor1 and weapons1 combined to triple their spawn rate. Such an expense, especially early in the game, is risky to say the least. However, unless 3.x has changed things, additional IPs beyond the third are irrelevant when marines are spawning. No more than three marines will ever spawn simultaneously regardless of how many IPs are placed on the map.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Protection.
      Aliens have no way to protect anything they build early game or even mid game. Skulks donít have much of a chance even against vanilla marines because once a marine gets to a node the #1 ability of a skulks is gone, element of surprise.
      If you allow the marine to get to your res node without you knowing, you have handed the element of surprise to him on a silver platter indeed. That's what parasites are for. Parasite the marines as they move the map, communicate about what res nodes you have that aren't under attack (as hive sight doesn't tell you this), and be positioned to surprise parasited marines moving toward your res nodes. Hive sight iMMEDiately notifies the ENTIRE team when one marine gets through. If this massive combination of early-game structure protection isn't sufficient, it's a blatant indication that your team has just the teamwork is takes to get your ass handed to you.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Offensive towers are almost useless now unless there are 4 or more. Which can only kill with line of sight unlike the 40 res for a seiging operation that can be recycled?
      Hives are quite weak as well.
      If you add a third fade to your ranks instead of those 4 lone and scattered OCs across the map, that seige is going to fall considerably more quickly than if two fades had been battling its builders, which will in turn result in your hive being plenty strong enough.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Electrification is just insane now, marines barely pay attention to nodes, and they just build them and walk away. While the aliens have a POS skulk that canít do much against marines attacking their nodes.
      Maybe that POS skulk should take a stroll through the POS marine spawn, which, I promise you, is lightly (if at all) defended as a result of the commander electrifying 4 nodes before the three minute mark. Then, when he sees his opportunity, he brings three of his buddies back for a TSA snack.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      When anything is electrified a skulk is useless. All a marine team needs to do is hit every node and electrify so that the aliens are starving for res and they canít get any higher life forms or hives. Upgrades are kind of pointless early game because regular marines have no problem with regular skulks.
      SO GET IRREGULAR SKULKS. If it's early game, and you see an electrified node, have a gorge and four skulks meet at the node. Rise to the occaision! Without carapace it's possible. With carapace it's a puff of black smoke over a res nozzle and a good chuckle towards the marines. It takes a relatively LONG TIME for 45 "+1 resources" to float off of that node and put its financial operations in the black. If you have good intel and react quickly, you can force a commander to lose money on the deal.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Remember when seiging took a good 5 minutes to do with the upgrades and the expense of sieges. Now they are disposable outposts that cost little. Personally I believe sieging operations should take as long as it takes a hive to build.
      180 seconds to setup seige? Not a good idea. Let's put hive spots right outside marine spawn and see how popular the 180 second hive setup time becomes.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      Also marine upgrades are over powering. With level 3 armor it takes 4 bites with a skulk.

      Yes this has to do a lot with the design of the game but still.
      But still... but still.... what? There's nothing to follow that with, I'm afraid. If you're a lone skulk approaching a level3 armor (and therefore, if the COMM is anything other than a complete nub, also a level3 weapons) marine, you should die, and fast.

      Originally posted by Emanon
      When have you seen the aliens win without a problem? Not at all really.
      We can try the old switcharoo for a week. Let the aliens have the extra player. If both teams have equal skill, you'll see a LOT of alien teams winning without a problem.

      Folks, as you read this thread, please don't hesitate to request that aliens get the extra player if you feel it's appropriate.

      Wyzcrak
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

        Originally posted by Vinzalf
        In all honesty, I dont think there is a legitamate place to put the extra man... the extra man should spectate until another player joins, or one quits...
        I very much like this idea. Spec'ing from time to time won't kill us. You learn a lot by doing that.

        Wyzcrak
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #5
          Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

          Very good points Wyz, This is how the devs see things.

          But your basing your reponses on a Clan type of play. Where everyone trusts what every other person says and reacts on a split second.

          And i must say your wrong about the fact that aliens win just as much as marines. I can garantee that this doesnt happen.

          this is exactly what im talking about:
          SO GET IRREGULAR SKULKS. If it's early game, and you see an electrified node, have a gorge and four skulks meet at the node. Rise to the occaision! Without carapace it's possible. With carapace it's a puff of black smoke over a res nozzle and a good chuckle towards the marines. It takes a relatively LONG TIME for 45 "+1 resources" to float off of that node and put its financial operations in the black. If you have good intel and react quickly, you can force a commander to lose money on the deal.


          When and if you get this many skulks together you have lost 2 or even 3 of your own nodes or a hive to a pg rush.

          There is still no reponse to the skulk weekness. Any one marine has the ammo to kill 4 skulks without reloading.

          and lastly I didnt suggest the aliens get the extra player at all.


          Wyzcrak sorry to say i barely ever see you on the alien team anyhow(non combat), and when you are you usually leave halfway through.

          Frustration? no its more of a fact of the matter of about 3 weeks of data.
          Last edited by Emanon; 02-25-2004, 12:26 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

            IMHO I think it should come down to who is on what team.


            "There is still no reponse to the skulk weekness. Any one marine has the ammo to kill 4 skulks without reloading."

            Unless your me. Then you get killed by the first while the other 3 drink beer.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

              Over the time I've been playing at TG we've only experienced a few ways of dealing with the 'extra player' issue... Initially it was 'whichever team needs it the most' meaning either who dosent have more players than the other, or who has the lower score. Now we use the 'Marines get it' stance.

              I'm perfectly willing to try any new ones we can think up, but if new ways are tested we need to make sure everyone knows about it. I'm completely willing to give up all fun in a game to fix a potential problem... I'll play, but I'll spent alot of time finding the not-so-obvious pros and cons to the problem. I've had alot of experience doing that in mmorpg's... I'm here to be used for that If it's needed.

              This is a big issue, lets not forget about it.

              I do like my idea about the spectating though =)

              So until I'm asked not to, That is what I will be doing when joining a game in progress where I'd make the teams uneven (bah, who am I kidding, I havent made the teams uneven since skulking in 1.04)
              RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

              Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

              I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                it sounds like emanon's been playing when the marines have stacked teams =\

                i have nothing much to say about pub games, and i'm not sure whether the game should be balanced with pub games in mind. Actually, i DON'T think the game should be balanced with pub games in mind. Which means pub games will suck most of the time.

                and i know of very few marines who can take down 4 skulks without reloading. (Actually a vanilla marine can take down 5 skulks with all lmg/pistol bullets...)

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                • #9
                  Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                  I actually think our problem would be solved if the electrification of resource nodes was taken out of the game completly.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                    Two hive aliens kick ass now. 1) they have regen/ adren fades. Yes rines can kill them but they can kill rines and are even better away from the rines taking down bases and RTs.
                    2) gorges have bilebombs and adren. This will take down a node in seconds.

                    If skulks are fighting against well upgraded rines they have already lost. They should have denied the res earlier. Don't let them build. Don't let them elec. Put them on the defensive by attacking their base.

                    I don't think either teams needs the extra man, or suffers greatly from being one man down.
                    Wintermute

                    Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                      Originally posted by MikoLovesYou
                      I actually think our problem would be solved if the electrification of resource nodes was taken out of the game completly.
                      I think that electrification was one of the worst mistakes the developers have made in this game's progression. :(

                      3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                        Originally posted by Tempus
                        I think that electrification was one of the worst mistakes the developers have made in this game's progression. :(
                        Ya...It wasnt that bad during the 2.0 phase. Where it affected 1 target and an RTs HP wasnt so high.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                          electricity always hit more than one target i thought o_O

                          and electrification imo sucks... too expensive for an RT that'll go down once you've passed the 3-4 minute mark to a regen fade. It'll have barely paid off when it gets torn down by any semi-competent alien team.

                          the fades have been re-rigged, that's really the biggest issue imo

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                            you wanna know the secret to winning?
                            "creative sportsmanship"

                            in another words.........


                            :icon37: *type type type*

                            -=free HMG, free JP, free lvl3 weapons and armor, and free motion tracking=-



                            erhem....one has to rig the game :icon_smil

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                            • #15
                              Re: Why the Marines dont need the extra man.

                              Originally posted by _Ender_
                              IMHO I think it should come down to who is on what team.


                              "There is still no reponse to the skulk weekness. Any one marine has the ammo to kill 4 skulks without reloading."

                              Unless your me. Then you get killed by the first while the other 3 drink beer.
                              When and if you get this many skulks together you have lost 2 or even 3 of your own nodes or a hive to a pg rush.
                              Originally posted by Emanon
                              There is still no reponse to the skulk weekness
                              what has this world come to?!

                              Comment

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