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  • Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

    I have noticed 2 things regarding this plugin that I cannot be the only one to notice. The first is that often the lack of an extra man on marines is due to a SM/Reg slotkicking someone. If the plugin is kept, is this really, really necessary? Can a good 15-20 second grace period not be added for this? Another thing that has really bothered me is people immediately telling someone to switch teams as soon as the plugin starts chirping away, when often the cause is a SM/Reg slotkick and a person is joining the server already.
    I believe the damage done by making someone change teams, when another player shortly will be in the server playing outweighs the damage of marines not having the extra player for 10-15 seconds. Is this plugin really necessary when everyone knows the marines get the extra player? I find it annoying to be spammed by this plugin when the game is ending or everytime someone is slotkicked, followed by people unwilling to notice that someone is already joining the server to replace the kicked player.

  • #2
    Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

    Reference link for past discussion on this subject before the plugin was implemented:

    http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural...am-balance.htm

    I'm going to re-read the thread to refresh my memory before posting my thoughts.
    Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
    Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

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    • #3
      Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

      I also find it annoying when a player gets slot kicked (its easy to tell if someone got slotkicked compared to if they just left) then they are told to change teams (or they do it themself), and then 5 seconds later the person joining just joined the team they just left. It disruptes the game more than if the person on aliens just waited for the person joining the server to join the game, especially if the alien had a lot of res.

      The situation is the server is full and it is 8 v 8. Someone with a res slot joins the server (you can see the join message) and kicks a player on the marine team making the teams 7 v 8. Now the last person on aliens (or someone else) would have to change to the marine team while the person with the res slot if joining the game. The last alien player switches to marines after about 5 seconds, then 5 seconds later the person with the res slot joins the game and goes aliens. This can really hurt the game more than just waiting an extra 5-10 seconds for the person with the res slot to join the marines, the last person on aliens could have a lot of res or doing other jobs.

      I have seen this happen a number of times on the server. Also sometimes it does work out to where the person joining with a res slot does fix the teams (joining marines). I have done it myself.

      Another issue is the teams are unbalanced and someone is sitting in the ready room. This is even worse and the slot join problem, someone is already in the server in the ready room, they should be joining a team, and if they dont join a team they should be forced too or kicked off the server. There is no reason to just idle in the ready room even if you are afk. I have seen someone switch teams becuase they were unbalanced then 5 seconds later the person that was in the ready room joins a team. That shouldn't happen.

      The main counter argument I have seen is that people join and go afk. I think this is a really bad argument, the reason you connect to the server is to play the game not connect and sit afk in the ready room, and if you have a res slot you can connect anytime you want anyway.

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      • #4
        Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

        The main counter argument I have seen is that people join and go afk. I think this is a really bad argument, the reason you connect to the server is to play the game not connect and sit afk in the ready room, and if you have a res slot you can connect anytime you want anyway.
        Yes I do find this highly irritating if people in the RR can't join within a few seconds of being there, or even worse, go idle. I have been in the habit of kicking people in the RR when the server is full after a short time of being there.

        If have noticed this plugin works great most of the time, outside of 3 common occurances:

        1) The server is full (8v8) and somebody gets slotkicked and the teams become uneven for 20s while the SM is joining. Lately I have been noticing a good majority of SMs and regs in this situation become angry or disgruntled when we all know that the res slotter will be joining very soon. It appears to be common sense that they will be here soon and join the team that just lost the non-SM.

        2) The end game. It's the end of the game and the winning team is finishing the other team off, then someone leaves and the alarm starts sounding about the uneven teams. I usually ask the other team if they want the extra man, but they almost always don't. The thing that becomes irritating in this situation is the alarm going off immediately after somebody leaves and repeating "we need better players, we need better players!", while we are destroying their base.

        3) There is a new ? mark player on the bottom of the list, while I am explaning to him our rule about switching teams, 10-15s usually pass with the maddning "We need better players!" is chirping along the whole time.

        I have read through the previous discussion, and after playing on the server with it for some time now I have come to these possible fixes:
        • A grace period of say 20s before the message starts playing to sort out these 3 "common sense" situations.
        • Removal of the "we need better players" .wav. It does achieve the "annoying" factor to get people to notice even moreso than they already have with the text, but over time I have noticed it is does nothing but to anger and frustrate the people who frequent the server. If an alternative .wav would be used, I would rather it would be something milder and not so offensive.

        • Leave the current system as is and fix the problem socially as throughly mentioned in the previous discussion before the plugin was implemented.


        If it is left as-is, then we will continue to have the problem occuring in these 3 types of situations as regs and SMs alike have not shown that they will fix the problem themselves consistently enough in all 3 of these situations. Either a stricker administrative policy could be used in dealing with these players who come up with the "but the res slot guy is joining", or, we could institute a grace period and a better .wav to play and likely defuse a lot of these 3 "common sense" instances.

        Thoughts?
        Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
        Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

          The reason this plugin was instituted to begin with was that, without a sound playing, a lot of people simply wont NOTICE the teams are unbalanced. So taking out the sound defeats the purpose of the plugin. Delaying the sound by 20 seconds means the teams will almost never be fixed in less than 20 seconds.

          How about this as a compromise? When the teams unbalance, play the .wav file just once, then wait 20 seconds. If the problem hasn't been fixed after 20 secs, then spam it.

          That would solve your situation 3 (a lot better than simply delaying the sound, since then you'll likely wait 20 secs, hear the spam, and THEN start explaining to him, and you've got the same problem.) And it would help out a bit with situation 2, since at least you have another 20 seconds to finish off the IPs or whatever. And it would also help sit 1 a bit.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

            Idea (probably not very good, but we're brainstorming): change the sound so that it only plays to admins (temp and full). This gets the word out without annoying everyone.

            Kero's idea is possible.

            More later. I've got to get some games in tonight.
            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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            • #7
              Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

              If the plugin stays in (Honestly I do not think it is needed, people are sensible enough to switch it up if someone just leaves the server once they notice), I would rather it be text only to Admin/temp/SM type folks. Maybe an initial sound, but once one of the people in this category realizes that the teams are uneven it will get fixed. The annoying wav spammage, and even such a large text message isn't needed really. Annoyance factors are not something you want to add to a game played for enjoyment, especially when the purpose of them can be accomplished without the annoyance at all.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                Originally posted by TheAdj`
                (People are sensible enough to switch it up if someone just leaves the server once they notice)
                That is the key phrase there. Before this plugin was instituted, people often didn't notice, and there were many calls for plugins to force players to switch because teams went unfixed so often.

                And in the intense combat that characterizes NS, it often takes quite a bit to break someone's concentration and get them to see something besides the people shooting at them. For example, I almost never see typed text while comming, just because I'm busy looking at 6 different other things at the same time.

                No comment on restricting the spam to only SMs/admins/what have you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                  The problem:
                  Teams are unbalanced, and need to be fixed immediately. Annoying voices are reminding you of this every 8 seconds.

                  The solution:
                  Even the teams immediately


                  Connections and how long they take are fickle, as are players in the readyroom. The expectation of the player is that these people should not be taken into account when considering team balance.

                  So if someone get slotkicked, fill the void. Don't presume that the SM will complete the connection in a reasonable amount of time, or at all. Fix the teams.

                  Is there a deeper issue I'm somehow missing?
                  [volun2]
                  NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                  Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                  <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                  <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                  Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                    Originally posted by Pokerface
                    The problem:
                    Teams are unbalanced, and need to be fixed immediately. Annoying voices are reminding you of this every 8 seconds.

                    The solution:
                    Even the teams immediately


                    Connections and how long they take are fickle, as are players in the readyroom. The expectation of the player is that these people should not be taken into account when considering team balance.

                    So if someone get slotkicked, fill the void. Don't presume that the SM will complete the connection in a reasonable amount of time, or at all. Fix the teams.

                    Is there a deeper issue I'm somehow missing?
                    If mechanical team switching is what we're going for (teams become uneven, somebody switches instantly) then that solves the problem, yes. All SMs, regulars, and ? mark players on the bottom will be asked to switch and if they don't in a small amount of time, forcefully switched onto the other team as quickly as possible. If this is what we are moving forward with, I feel everyone should have fair warning now and no more complaining ingame about this issue.

                    Although IMHO, there should be more consideration given to certain circumstances and the basic function of the plugin (regarding what it plays and how long).
                    Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
                    Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                      There is ample time to consider circumstances with the present method. Connecting players and players in the readyroom are NOT among those circumstances, however.
                      [volun2]
                      NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                      Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                      <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                      <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                      Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                        I still think this plugin is awesome. Teams get fixed so much faster now than before we had it that's it's well worth the minor annoyances to keep it. That said, kero's solution of playing the sound once then waiting 20s before spamming it seems to be a good fix to the stated problem, though I'm perfectly happy with the policy of having people switch regardless of whether someone is joining or in the rr. The only time there should be any delay in my opinion should be if a lifeform at the bottom of the list gives his team ~10s to switch to save the lifeform.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                          wait a friggin darn second here.........


                          I thought the whole point of this was because in the past, most people took 1-3 min to even the teams?


                          maybe if we have a better track record of not taking 1-3 min this would have never shown up?


                          oh previous link not working for me for the old discussion

                          do you serve a purpose or do you purposely serve

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                          • #14
                            Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                            It is good the way it is, I would like to see a little of a wait before the switch occurs, as I have seen this occur much too often, sm kick a reg, bottom alien joins marines to fix, sm joins the aliens less then 2 seconds later. The total time here is about 15 or so secs. Doing a message, then a 15 sec wait might be nice.

                            Also, why is it that about 70% of the sm kicks I see on the marines? I was playing a game were 3 marines were kicked in a row, it was captains so there was no need to fix, but is the plugin kicking more marines by it design, or is it that aliens are more often sm, or here longer reg?
                            Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

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                            • #15
                              Re: Marine Extra Man Plugin Discussion

                              My vote: there should *at minimum* be a delay before the annoying voice starts. I played one game where I switched 3 times within one match just to shut it up.

                              Plugins to enforce what should be social (possibly admin) issues never get really high on my favorites list. I like the idea of the message going to admins who are online so they can get the encourage appropriate switching.

                              As for whether new connections are being considered in the decision to switch, it seems blindly disregarding new connections is building the plugin for the exception rather than the norm (the norm being that most times a new connection will replace a slot-kick).

                              I like the idea of bumping idlers in the ready room.

                              I also liked how it was done before the plugin was established. The whole original discussion seemed like a tempest in a teapot to me.

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