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  • Resource Distribution

    Hello, I'm Irish Pirate. You may remeber me from such educational flims as "Why is that skulk biting me?" and "Always use protection: Your guide to guns". I'm here today to share an idea regarding a plugin.

    Currently when an alien disconnects from the team, all thier res is divided up and given to the players immediately. I suggest that instead of giving away all of thier res, up to 25 resources are stored elsewhere and given to to th next alien player who joins. The rest of the resources are given to the team as the current distribution system would have it.

    Why 25 res? This is the res aliens start with at the beginning of the game. Keeping it seperate will stop the alien team form getting lots of extra resources early in the game due to disconnection, and also allow aliens who join later to have a more useful roll in the Kharaa economy.

    Your opinion matters! Vote today!
    12
    Leave it as is.
    33.33%
    4
    Switch to Irish Pirate / Kero's logic (or something suitably similar).
    66.67%
    8

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    Re: Resource Distribution

    I like that change to the system. :D

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Resource Distribution

      *votes yes*

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Resource Distribution

        Wasn't this already posted? I love the idea, and the delivery was quite humorous as well.

        Two wing tips up! (Lerks don't have thumbs)
        remi.D

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Resource Distribution

          Originally posted by Irish Pirate
          I suggest that instead of giving away all of thier res, up to 25 resources are stored elsewhere and given to to th next alien player who joins. The rest of the resources are given to the team as the current distribution system would have it.
          I went away and coded this, and I found the design's fatal flaw.. the reason why it will not work.

          Bottom line: when a player with more than 25 resources leaves the team, I don't know if his base 25 resources were given him by the game (or pool) or earned from resource towers during his time in the game. Therefore, I don't know which resources to distribute and which to pool.

          Example scenario:

          Bob starts game. He starts with 25. Later, he leaves with 43. His six teammates get three resources each ((42-25)/6), with 25 resources going into the pool.

          Peter joins soon after. Peter gets 25 of (in this case, "all of") the pool's resources. Peter immediately blows those 25 resources on cheap liquor and self-loathing and scantily-clad women. He then proceeds to earn 40 resources from RFK and res towers before himself leaving the game.

          So, Peter's leaving the game now, and he's got 40 resources. Peter got 25 resources from the pool when he joined, and so it's natural to think that 25 of his 40 resources should go BACK into the pool so that they're available to the next player who comes along.

          But that doesn't work, as Peter blew his 25 pool resources on women and booze.

          And so you see my problem. For this idea to work, I've got to keep track of every resource that an alien spends on anything, and I can't (won't) do that.

          Someone can either solve this problem for me or consider the solution in my next post.
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Resource Distribution

            And so the other solution....

            Delayed distribution with an opportunity to avoid it entirely.

            When a player leaves the team, a one-minute timer kicks off. If another (hell, even the same) player joins the team during this time, he gets all of the resources. If no one joins the team during the timer, the resources are distributed as they are today.
            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Resource Distribution

              Originally posted by Wyzcrak
              And so the other solution....

              Delayed distribution with an opportunity to avoid it entirely.

              When a player leaves the team, a one-minute timer kicks off. If another (hell, even the same) player joins the team during this time, he gets all of the resources. If no one joins the team during the timer, the resources are distributed as they are today.
              Resource distribution is a counter to the unfortunate reality that a team cannot be composed of the same 8 players for the entire duration of the game. People come and go.

              Ideally, at least from a team standpoint, a player taking over another player's spot on the team continues the removed player's ... everything... just as the removed player (and arguably the team itself) had envisioned. This is why the above-quoted design gives the resources of the removed player to whichever player first takes his place on the team.

              But the point of this plugin, to begin with, is to counter the punishment the aliens take if a removed player's spot is never taken by a new incoming player. That's why the resource distribution would continue, in the above-quoted design, after one minute.

              Yes, the imbalance we're trying to counter with today's modifications still occurs if no one joins the team to take the removed player's spot, but that's avoided if a player jumps in, and I really think people don't want the team to just flat out lose those resources if a player leaves the team (stock NS behavior).
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Resource Distribution

                On your scenario with Bob and Peter...why should it matter if thats the SAME 25 res or not? Peter got 25 res from the system, so he can give back 25 res to the system. When you take out a loan from the bank, does the bank ask for the exact same bills back when its time to pay, or will they take any bills so long as they add up to the same amount?

                The point of the system is that it reflects what the team would look like, had Bob and Peter never been there to begin with. All the res derived from dead marines, and all the res derived from active res towers, remains, but you don't get to keep the "free" res you got just for having more players.

                In terms of game balance, the only scenario where it makes a significant difference is the one where no player joins for a minute or so. Irish's idea would give the alien team immediate access to the spare res, but remove the portion that is only there because of a larger team size. Your idea would hold the entire sum hostage for a full minute, but then hand it all out, including the "large team size" bonus res.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Resource Distribution

                  I don't think there is a perfect solution for this, and Wyz your solution has a severe flaw in my mind, but I also think it's the best way to do it.

                  If I think about it from the standpoitn that NS already just drops the res when someone leaves it's fine, but then again we're trying to make this better and we already have a plugin to dish out the res when somoene leaves...

                  So holding it hostage for a minute is annoying to me, but I do think it's the best way.
                  remi.D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Resource Distribution

                    Originally posted by Kerostasis
                    On your scenario with Bob and Peter...why should it matter if thats the SAME 25 res or not? Peter got 25 res from the system, so he can give back 25 res to the system. When you take out a loan from the bank, does the bank ask for the exact same bills back when its time to pay, or will they take any bills so long as they add up to the same amount?

                    The point of the system is that it reflects what the team would look like, had Bob and Peter never been there to begin with. All the res derived from dead marines, and all the res derived from active res towers, remains, but you don't get to keep the "free" res you got just for having more players.

                    In terms of game balance, the only scenario where it makes a significant difference is the one where no player joins for a minute or so. Irish's idea would give the alien team immediate access to the spare res, but remove the portion that is only there because of a larger team size. Your idea would hold the entire sum hostage for a full minute, but then hand it all out, including the "large team size" bonus res.
                    What Kero said.

                    In the event a game started with less than 8 people on the alien team, and someone joins before anyone leaves but after whenever they stop getting 25 res for joining, that person's res might get caught up in the system in an "unfair" way.

                    All you would have to keep track of to fix that problem would be who joined after the fixed time and recieved no res from the plugin.

                    EDIT: I would like to minimize the length of this thread. The other one should still be available for posting in if the idea needs to be refined further.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Resource Distribution

                      I believe we are getting far into far too complicated discussion about this. I really think we should just do it and see how it goes. Most of these things are going to have a really minimal effect on the game. Even if it does give the aliens more res then they should ahve, i think the tradeoffs are worth it.
                      remi.D

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Resource Distribution

                        Originally posted by blu.knight
                        I believe we are getting far into far too complicated discussion about this. I really think we should just do it and see how it goes. Most of these things are going to have a really minimal effect on the game. Even if it does give the aliens more res then they should ahve, i think the tradeoffs are worth it.
                        Negative. If this creates resources, it's a failure, and it's unacceptable. It should only move resources.

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis
                        On your scenario with Bob and Peter...why should it matter if thats the SAME 25 res or not?
                        Did you answer your own question?
                        Originally posted by Kerostasis
                        The point of the system is that it reflects what the team would look like, had Bob and Peter never been there to begin with.
                        With Irish's idea, I have to know if the 25 resources were earned or free, right? I can't just unconditionally remove 25 resources from the team every time it loses a member, and I can't /conditionally/ remove 25 resources based on whether or not the removed player was /given/ 25 resources to begin with, as the unpredictability of that will annoy players, I'm sure of it.

                        Frankly, I love the "loan" talk Kero offers. It really does make things seem simpler, and I'd prefer that approach over the "one minute hostage" design if it weren't for the fact that people want to know what's about to happen.

                        Players will get annoyed if they have to ................




                        I am not satisfied with the rate at which written communication allows me to work through this, and I've got time tonight to code more. I am on TeamSpeak and want people to join me so that we can talk this through.
                        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Resource Distribution

                          Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                          And so you see my problem. For this idea to work, I've got to keep track of every resource that an alien spends on anything, and I can't (won't) do that.
                          Can you keep track of whether or not a player drops below 25 (or 15, or some number) res, ever? Just a yes/no.

                          If so, then you solve this issue, mostly. If they drop below the set amount, then we say they've cut into their game start res and that part now gets distributed along with everything else.

                          So, Bob starts the game, and his drop_var is false, as he's started the game and not gone below our number. With drop_var false, the team gets ((42-25)/6) a piece, and the 25 sits.

                          Peter joins, gets res, and spends it on lerks with loose morals. He goes below our number, and drop_var goes true. From this point on, any and all res that he has will be redistibuted to the whole team, no matter how much res he later accumulates.
                          [volun2]
                          NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                          Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                          <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                          <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                          Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Resource Distribution

                            I don't see the issue of removing 25 res from anyone regardless of what they spent thier res on previously except in the example I mentioned.

                            Players 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 start the game on the same team, and each begin with 25 res.

                            Player 6 leaves the game after collecting 50 res.

                            Players 1-5 revieve 5 res.

                            Player 7 joins the game a minute later and gets 25 res to start with.

                            *The above is agreeable as what the scenario is so far by your description wyz?

                            Scenario 1

                            Upon reaching 30 res player 7 spends it all on lerk.

                            Player 7 racks up 30 more res from killing stuff + resnodes and then disconnects.

                            25 res is stored for the next player while each other player on the team gets 1.

                            Scenario 2

                            Player 7 doesn't spend any res and disconnects once reaching 60 res.

                            25 res are stored and each team member recieves 7 res.


                            Scenario 1 - Player 7 had 60 res pass through his hands. He was given 25 to start with, gained a total of 35 through the course of the game, spent a total of 30 through the course of the game, gave 5 back to the team, and 25 back to the lock box.

                            Scenario 2 - Player 7 had 60 res pass through his hands. He was given 25 to start with, gained a total of 35 through the course of the game, gave 35 to the team and put 25 back in the lock box.

                            Why is scenario 2 acceptable, but scenario 1 not?

                            A better question would be what happens if player 6 leaves with only 10 res because he spent some of it before disconnecting in the first place. The answer is, to the player who recives only the 10 res, only 10 res should be deducted from his res total before he disconnects. You only have to keep track of the amount of res, and make sure a greater amount is not removed than was given.

                            No res will be generated or removed from the game unless the game ends with fewer people than it started with.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Resource Distribution

                              Irish has just given me an idea. Its complex, so I'm going to try Teamspeak first. If I don't find anyone there, I'll come back and post it.

                              Edit: Anyway, the idea is this.

                              Every time a player joins aliens, he starts with some number of res. At the beginning of the game its 25, later it could be anything from 0 up to 25 depending on what he gets from the plugin. When he joins, have the plugin remember how much res he STARTED with.

                              Later, when he leaves, that amount that he started with is deposited in the bank to wait for the next joiner. Everything else is distributed to the team.

                              That doesn't change the bob-and-peter scenario, but I don't think that needs to be changed. What it fixes is this--game starts with only 7 on each side. A few minutes in, a new player joins and starts with 0 res (because there was no leaver to donate anything to him). He hits 25 res, and then disconnects. Under the first version of this plugin, that would be wasted. Now it will all be distributed, because that player had a "starting res count" of 0, so nothing is stored in the vault.

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