No announcement yet.


  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Combat

    Sucks. Yes I know. That's what this thread is about.

    I think it was lost who originally came up with this idea, but I'm sure it's been looked-at before. The idea was that aliens should lose lifeforms (and I'll add, also lose third hive abilities) and marines should lose equipment on death. Weapons upgrades and armor upgrades as well as alien chamber upgrades would remain "no-drop".

    I would love to at least give this gameplay a shot. I think one of the ridiculous and stupid things about combat is that you can kill fade after fade after fade and there is no end to it.

    It would also eliminate jp hive rush (over and over and over). It gets very tiresome when the only decent counter to having 42378942371980 jp's in the hive room (on faceoff, for instance) is having 39824723984 webs and focus or xeno.

    I think this would improve combat to almost-tolerable levels.

  • #2
    Re: Combat

    I assume when you say "lose" you mean spawn without the upgrade, and lose the experience points and levels associated with it. I don't think that the hive upgrades would be neccessary to remove, but if you lost levels when you lost a lifeform it could really offer some interesting new elements...

    In a similar way, marines wouldn't lose damage or armor, but they would lose guns, welder, or prototech...

    I wonder if there is a way to block resupply... Maybe a new resupply method could be coded that would just drop you ammo or meds (maybe two at a time) if you request it. That way resupply isn't as ridiculous as it is now, and we would be able to hear the good ol' voice requests in CO.

    I actually think it would be pretty easy to block resupply, and if there is a way to take away the xp it would be real easy to just hook the impulse to buy resupply, and then tell it that it's active on the current player, and then let the magic begin! :D


    Another interesting idea would be to prevent aliens from getting more than one upgrade per chamber... Maybe that paired with buildmenu would allow for some much more interesting games.
    (That way maybe a gorge would put an MC in a vent so a lerk can gas, or DCs near the hive or something)

    P.S. The flaw with the original idea is that all the aliens would just go superskulk because that's the way they wouldn't die, which is why I just suggested what I did.


    • #3
      Re: Combat

      Love the out-of-the-box thinking here. I'll be following this thread, though I doubt I'll have time to contribute much. If you smart people decide something which Poker smiles on is worth giving a go, I'd be happy to take a shot at coding it, solo or collaboratively.

      CO is ours to do with what we please, as far as lil' ol' me is concerned.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.


      • #4
        Re: Combat

        Meb or someone I don't really member made a really good combat plug in and it was like the competitive co and it was used on the NSA veteran server I believe.

        7 Max levels (meaning you could only go up to level 8)
        Aliens can only have 1 upgrade per upgrade tree
        No Onos
        No Ha (I dont remember if you could get jetpacks or not and I am not sure about HA either)
        No third hive ability

        It seems pretty balanced and fun. No super fades, or onos. The 7 upgrades only balance the marines because you couldn't get a level 3 shotty jetpack. Level 1 with resupply. If they got mines or scan or motion it was pretty much a waste of a valuable point.

        I think it would work.


        • #5
          Re: Combat

          I'm all for limiting it... (as my previous thread showed)
          But I think that's limiting it a little too much. I also don't like not being able to get HA... If you can't get JP either that seems good...

          Hmm.. I don't know. It sounds like it could be amusing... maybe if that was paired with less exp per kill it could offer some interesting-ness...


          Another possibility could be making weapons and armor "team" upgrades... and making it so you need to donate one of your levels towards the cost of the team upgrades... So then if you wanted armor1 a certain percent of the people would need to donate a level.. so like, 50% of the number of people would mean that 2 levels would need to be donated if there were 4 on your team... These could be donated by the same person, but the point is it would require a little bit more teamwork and thought.

          Maybe some levels would need to be spent to build an armory or an armslab and a protolab before you can get weapons/upgrades/prototech...

          It could be interesting. Make buildmenu actually useful... Though I think to do this it would require either the ability to detract a certain amount of xp (just take off like half a level to build an armory or something), or something...

          I'd be willing to help make a plugin if we come up with a good idea.


          • #6
            Re: Combat

            Originally posted by xtcmen View Post
            7 Max levels (meaning you could only go up to level 8)
            Aliens can only have 1 upgrade per upgrade tree
            No Onos
            No Ha (I dont remember if you could get jetpacks or not and I am not sure about HA either)
            No third hive ability
            It's an interesting idea but I see the following attributes:


            + One upgrade per tree makes combat _actually_decent_ practice for the technical side of NS.

            + Third hive abilities are overpowered, and so removing them doesn't hurt gameplay that much.


            Removing onos and HA means that an already limited tech tree (heavy roller vs. speed) to each team has just become a pure speed battle. While acceptable this seems, to me, a tad restrictive.


            Remedy (Blu), you got pretty much everything how I intended it as far as information goes with your first post. I think your second got a little (hope this doesn't offend you) convoluted, in how abstractly it deviates from "normal" gameplay.

            The changes you mentioned to resupply would make it less annoying, but it's bad as-is. Making it worse would just mean no one would _ever_ buy it.

            I also like the mod of only allowing one upgrade per chamber, though I wouldn't tie it to buildmenu just yet, that would be a tad premature.

            Last, third hive abilities are nice. This was the hardest question in my logic "what to drop on death?". My conclusion was that second hive abilities are balanced-enough and enough a part of "normal" templates (meta fade, bile gorge) to permit them to not drop on death. This is actually an exception for the good of the balance of the game. Third hive abilities NO QUESTION must drop on death, but I wouldn't remove them from the game completely, at least, not at first.

            Thanks for the input.


            • #7
              Re: Combat

              Well for meb's idea, I could see it working with people getting like lvl 2-3 shotties hmgs with welders. Verse a whole team of fades and lerks and a couple skulks. This way I think the only way you can win is with teamwork.

              Another possibility: Since marines are attacking and aliens are defending, you could take out the CC with a capped 15 minute time limit.


              • #8
                Re: Combat

                My version of combat, this is going to be kind of wacky.

                Experance is removed, resources is used in place of it. You gain resources over time at a set rate(slow), you also gain resources for kills(most of the res comes from this).

                Upgrades: every upgrade you get cost resources. Example numbers: an alien upgrade is 5 res, weapons 1 is 5 res, a shotgun is 10 res, a fade is 25 res.

                Aliens can only get 1 upgrade per chamber, you can change upgrades at a cost if you want a different one from the same chamber. 3ed hive abilities are removed.

                Death: when you die you lose your lifeform/gun/jp/ha, you keep your upgrades.


                • #9
                  Re: Combat

                  The only way to fix combat is to remove it from NS.


                  • #10
                    Re: Combat

                    So we'll remove the existing instance of combat, fix it, and replace it where it was, thereby fixing combat under your premesis.


                    • #11
                      Re: Combat

                      Originally posted by Slayer of Hippies View Post
                      So we'll remove the existing instance of combat, fix it, and replace it where it was, thereby fixing combat under your premesis.
                      No, you remove combat.

                      You're done.


                      • #12
                        Re: Combat

                        I'd be in favor of getting some variation of the drop-on-death idea, since in my opinion it would make combat more versatile and less about the jp rush vs. lerk/fade. In balance terms I think a fully upgraded skulk against a fully upgrade lmg is reasonably fair, so we just need to look at costs for the upgrades that might be lost, which can be done by comparing points to res.

                        Using a shotgun as the baseline (1 point = 10 res), here are the numbers:
                        hmg/gl 2 points vs. 15 res
                        jp/ha 2 points vs. 15 res
                        welder 1 point vs. 5 res
                        gorge 1 point vs. 10 res
                        lerk 2 points vs. 30 res
                        fade 3 points vs. 50 res
                        onos 4 points vs. 70 res

                        So we can see that marines seem to be getting the short end of the stick here, with most of their upgrades being overpriced, while aliens are basically getting oni for 40 res and fades for 30. Add that to the fact that aliens are the 'defending' team, and hence win most games on time, and I don't think we'll be seeing many marine victories.

                        The fix: Give 1 pt. back when an ha/jp dies, and don't include welders in the drop-on-death change. Then, losing a fully equipped ha/jp costs 3 pts (30 res), instead of 5 pts. (50 res).


                        • #13
                          Re: Combat

                          implementing our own res system in combat could allow us to solve the problem you just put forth.


                          • #14
                            Re: Combat

                            I kind of was going to make a good post on this, but it got lost with all my college stuff happing. (I leave this Saturday)

                            The idea we were building had lots of small stuff in it, that may or may not be good. I try to get it all down here.
                            Note some of the ideas started from here: Combat Plugin - TacticalWiki
                            But I think that it is dead, as I have not seen anything about it.

                            The major plan was to make death more harmful, to make it more of a team attack then 1 marine after another for 15 minutes.

                            Most of these were talked about during a co game, I have added a few of my own and changed a few to make it a bit easy to understand. This list is not in anyway complete, and I do not think I could make a list that would be good enough. Maybe someone could use this as a base and expand it.

                            O Loss of most upgrades (Individual upgrades?)
                            (Reasoning)-: Make death more harmful to make suicide runs less valuable
                            No point in making one if you lose most the points you gain

                            O Marines lose things like weapons, JPs / HAs when they die

                            O Aliens lose things like life form, any upgrades pass 1 per type per hive upgrade
                            (If they have an sc and an mc upgrade at hive 1, and die they lose the last one, but at hive two would keep both)

                            O Lost of most levels that the person had on death
                            -: Make it so they can’t buy back right at the spawn and still can get a little something to help.

                            (Idea)?? - Keep track of some stat, so that a spawn camping fade can not bring the marines down to level 1. Maybe a timer or a must have 1 kill to lose levels or a min level that you can’t fall bellow.

                            O Loss of levels for aliens would be different. They would lose more on class level then a general amount. Fade and onos would lose a greater amount of levels on death; gorges would lose the least or none. Skulks would be around marine level, and lerk, between the fades/onos and skulks.

                            Upgrade will be changed.

                            O Team upgrades
                            –: like this idea could be used in place of min level, so that you keep armor and weapons upgrades, so you are not hopeless, just mostly.

                            O Resupply cost a small amount of exp, after x uses. Make it call to get.
                            -: you get a few free med packs and ammo pack per life, but after that it costs you.

                            ?? Maybe make the ammo pack and medpacks also help nearby teammates. Make it so they would want to move in groups, and spread around the loss.

                            O Scan will require at least 1 other marine nearby to fire.
                            -: Allows for solo marines to be take out by single cloaking aliens, to encourage them to move in groups.

                            ?? Add build menu may help here, build an obs, then you can call in your own scans, rather then have a perfect scanner.

                            I would like to see build menu addressed in this, it could help a lot, go for upgrades structures, to remove alien upgrades, they get refunded some %, but they need to rebuild the chambers, same for the marines.

                            Marine’s building upgrades controlled
                            Obs Scan, MT
                            Arms lab Armor/ weapon upgrades, catpacks
                            Armory Resupply, weapons

                            Losing arms labs reduces max weapons and armor to 1.

                            There is more to be said an talked about, but hopefully this might be a good list of ideas.
                            Last edited by Eternaly_Lost; 08-14-2006, 09:52 PM. Reason: A little more clearness
                            Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief


                            • #15
                              Re: Combat

                              Back when combat came out there was an option for you to lose all upgrades on death and be able to completely change configurations every death.

                              Actually that was the default and the combat we play now was the option. It was made and popularized by one of the more famous clans back then... wasn't terror, but the one that meb was in before terror.
                              Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.




                              TeamSpeak 3 Server




                              Twitter Feed