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  • Vent Hopping

    I was *reminded* of this on the last HLTV session, and it brought it back up as... well, to be frank I don't realize the legitimacy of this rule. The primer is a good framework, but when it makes no sense, I don't see the value.

    A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I had a PM discussion about this with Wyz, the reasons discussed were as follows:

    Originally posted by Wyzcrak
    And then there's The Primer. It fits Natural Selection least amicably compared to the other titles Tactical Gamer hosts, but it is not completely foreign to it. We strive to accommodate it whenever it is reasonable to do so. Admins, ultimately, define "reasonable," but, as you'll see with the gorge/node thread, we sometimes (not always) consult the playerbase during our determination of "reasonable."
    I noticed hushed agreement in the HLTV session, in relation to my criticism of this rule, so I'm looking to open a discussion about how "reasonable" it is to disallow venthopping.

    Originally posted by Wyzcrak
    Three key points led to vent hopping becoming prohibited:

    1) it doubles the speed of a marine (this goes to balance)
    2) it's outside the intentions of the developers and the expectations of most players, especially those embracing The Primer (this bold is key, and makes the decision uniquely well-suited to Tactical Gamer)
    3) it's stupid easy to spot and prevent in other players, in part due to the isolation, literally and situationally, in which one performs the maneuver
    My criticisms center around 1) how little it actually increases the power of the rines, given the map opportunity that exists, 2) that this must be in the intention of the developers, or they would have removed it (and that the expectations of players don't matter because that's going on the "CS Player Convention Determines Good Rulings" aka Lemming Complex) and 3) I don't see any consistency in trying to construe the primer to disallow this:

    Originally posted by The Primer
    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.
    Bunny Hopping/Rail Hopping, Mine Ladders, Placing Mines Inside Phasegates, WiggleWalking/WallWalking - only to name a few of the "not-frowned-upon" tactics permitted in Tactical Gamer even with Bullet Three of the Primer.

    I see an inconsistency with the enforcement of this rule, and although it's not my job or right to create rules on Tactical Gamer, I believe this detracts from gameplay and doesn't follow common sense.

    For the sake of the definition of "reasonable" in relation to this rule, and to expose or shut down any problems in consistency, please discuss.

    Regards,
    --Slayer

  • #2
    Re: Vent Hopping

    I'll be kind and leave this open.

    Rules questions/clarifications such as this are generally best served through a PM to an admin, but since a lot has changed since the last discussion, I'll keep this thread available for the time being.
    [volun2]
    NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
    Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
    <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
    <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

    Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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    • #3
      Re: Vent Hopping

      I'm not challenging this rule, but a justification at least for the downward hopping would be that it represents sliding on the part of the marine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vent Hopping

        You're doubling your unit speed in an area of the map designed to half it, and it's unmistakably identifiable during gameplay.

        The other things you listed are just too much of a pain in the ass to remove administratively, and the benefit you get from performing them is next to nothing.

        We explained all of this to you when you PM'd us in March.

        What are we discussing?
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #5
          Re: Vent Hopping

          Originally posted by Slayer of Hippies View Post
          2) that this must be in the intention of the developers, or they would have removed it (and that the expectations of players don't matter because that's going on the "CS Player Convention Determines Good Rulings" aka Lemming Complex)
          It's really hard to make this argument given that vents are designed to slow marines down, and that marines have already had bunnyhopping as a whole intentionally denied them by the developers. I can't give much credence to a claim that the devs must have intentionally chosen a buggy fix for marine bunnyhopping, and so any bugs that get around the restriction must be intended as well. I am much more likely to believe that it was simply the best available code implementation at the time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vent Hopping

            Originally posted by Slayer of Hippies View Post
            Bunny Hopping/Rail Hopping, Mine Ladders, Placing Mines Inside Phasegates, WiggleWalking/WallWalking - only to name a few of the "not-frowned-upon" tactics permitted in Tactical Gamer even with Bullet Three of the Primer.
            FYI = WiggleWalking/WallWalking ARE indeed "frowned upon", if not by the majority then all of the Administration. These practices would be removed if we could easily administrate them, and you won't see me personally participate in them.

            Bunny Hopping was indeed accredited an attribute as an alien ability by the development team. Marines however aren't so fortunate.

            The TGNS Primer, where we adopted the Primer specifically for NS, covers game play issues specifically for NS because the traditional TG Primer didn't exactly "fit" NS game play.

            TG doesn't "Go with the flow" if you haven't noticed, especially in regards to how other servers play. We do things the way that works for us, that gives us the most enjoyment and interaction from the game without stepping outside the boundaries of the intentional game mechanics and design.

            So what if you can't bunny hop, as a marine, in a vent? You still get there as intended to the game design. If no one knew about the bug, then no one would give a crap about it.

            Originally posted by Slayer of Hippies View Post
            2) that this must be in the intention of the developers, or they would have removed it
            This is a pretty misguided perception. Just because something exists in a game doesn't mean it is intentional. I do believe this is a bug in the mantis database, but I will have to get back to you on this.
            USAR

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            • #7
              Re: Vent Hopping

              Originally posted by Wyzcrak
              You're doubling your unit speed in an area of the map designed to half it, and it's unmistakably identifiable during gameplay.
              Given the amount it's actually used, and given the other allowed "pseudo-exploits", I still don't see how this makes it a disallowed practice.

              Originally posted by Wyzcrak
              We explained all of this to you when you PM'd us in March.
              You explained it in a way that didn't make sense to me, so I let it drop. You brought it back up, so now since it's being talked about again, I figured I'd post about it and perhaps that would yield clearer information.

              @Kero:

              This discussion has nothing to do with vent hopping as a modular entity. Rail hopping is also allowed, and that's the real crux of the matter. If they'd wanted to disallow rail hopping all they'd have had to do is cease checking your height and just make a static rule of "no more acceleration after a jump, for a fixed amount of time -- period" (similar to how CS did it, IIRC). It would have, if I'm seeing it correctly, actually been much much easier to implement on a code standpoint if they'd wanted to remove all rail hopping (which is a decidedly more used, and more powerful realistically-nonsensical practice than is vent hopping). That's what puzzles me about saying "this wasn't intenitional". Even if they'd A) wanted rail hopping, and B) not wanted vent hopping, they could have limited the total consecutive hops or prevented a marine from hopping based on how high the situation allowed him to go or... probably a million other algorithms.

              Wall grinding and wigglewalking are much more powerful tools than vent hopping. Wall grinding and railhopping are at least as detectable as vent hopping is.

              To address the most serious issue here, I personally don't see how this makes gameplay worse. That doesn't mean I'm right, it just means I don't see it. I don't want to come across as some kind of a V for Vendetta personality. I'm not telling you how to run your server. I'm telling you that, as I see it, there's an arbitrary inconsistency in this ruling, and if you don't like that, perhaps it would be good for the administration to consider rethinking it.

              Thank you for your consideration.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Vent Hopping

                So, just a question, is it okay to hop in vents as an alien or is that disallowed, or is it a marine only deal?

                Lerks also seem to gain a significant speed boost, but is a bit harder to avoid(lerks fly to get around).
                Last edited by freebirdpat; 08-27-2006, 04:06 PM. Reason: adding lerk stuff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Vent Hopping

                  The rule applies only to marines, pat.
                  --

                  Originally posted by Slayer of Hippies View Post
                  Wall grinding and railhopping are at least as detectable as vent hopping is.
                  This is the crux, so that you understand.

                  Marines have zero good reason to be hopping in a crouch-forcing vent. Zero. It doesn't matter if they're in battle or not, with other marines or not.... nothing matters. The marine has no business hopping in a vent to quadruple his intended speed ever. Ever. Its effect is a threat to both atmosphere and balance, while its cause is an affront to the very tenets of our community.

                  You just can't say, administratively, that a marine never ever has any business whatsoever hopping onto and off of a rail or placing his body against a wall as he moves down a hallway. Unfortunately from the standpoint of an administrator who would like to enjoy his NS without those exploits, there are times when it makes perfect sense for a marine to hop a rail or be up against a hallway's wall. The same goes for jumping on a ramp and lots of other "inconsistencies."

                  Now I've got to know** if the marine was distracted by battle as he cleared that rail, or jumped up that ramp, or if he was just alone and insistent on moving faster. Now I've got to know** if that marine was against the wall to round the corner, or to make room for his other marines in the same hallway, or if he too was in battle, or if it was just because he just likes to do nonsensical things with the engine, even when no one else is around, to go faster.

                  And so you reply "ok, but surely we can administer this when a marine is alone." Yeah, maybe. But now we've got to administer gray area. What's "alone?" Did he fear a skulk ambush that wasn't there and jump to avoid an ambush he anticipated? How does administering this change from map to map? Location to location?

                  And if you think all of that is ridiculous, it gets worse, as it isn't just admins who observe rules infractions and call for their correction.... it's most regulars, too. So now, if we prohibit these others things (wallwalking, railhopping, rampjumping, etc, etc, etc), which, I'm arguing, are potentially easier to mis-diagnose, then I've got THREE monsters to fight:
                  • admins mis-diagnosing behavior which justifies a player's eventual removal
                  • rules-educated and intelligent regulars confused about their OWN legitimacy as they move
                  • players getting harassed by other players, or worse, confused admins... who are convinced that you're breaking the rules when you're not (see ** above)

                  And so it can get pretty high-maintenance pretty quickly.

                  Vent hopping can't, and so it's removed, because its frequency isn't low enough, or the administrative effort of prohibiting it high enough, for the admins to allow it to remain in gameplay.
                  Originally posted by Slayer of Hippies
                  Given the amount it's actually used, and given the other allowed "pseudo-exploits", I still don't see how this makes it a disallowed practice.
                  So now you understand, even if you don't agree.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Vent Hopping

                    My internet is still bugging, so this question isn't anything more than curiosity. But what exactly are rail-hopping and wall grinding?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Vent Hopping

                      Railjumping and rampjumping are exploits by which a marine gets a speed boost by strafejumping onto and off of a plane (ramp or rail) at a higher altitude.

                      Wallgrinding, or wallwalking, is an exploit by which a player gets a speed boost by literally strafing against ("grinding") a surface.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Vent Hopping

                        I really don't know where you are getting these wild speed boosts from, when a marine walks in a vent his speed is about 70, when a marine bhops in a vent, even the best of hoppers get to only about 90.

                        The only place I can think of that you might actually be able to go maybe as fast as a walking marine is the sloped vent on origin, and I would have to argue that it was designed that way because it would have been just as easy to make a straight vent with a ladder instead of a long sloping vent(as was done between bio and vent on the same map). Bhopping in vents doesn't imbalance the game because of the aforementioned limited use. In my opinion listening to the admins try to control this action takes more away from the game that the action itself.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Vent Hopping

                          well idk..i dislike bhoping and lamer speed gain in any game.

                          BUT b-hop was revoved from use in dystopia, why not here and well and vent speed jumping.


                          wyz you said it right there...."Railjumping and rampjumping are exploits...." so then why allow any exploits? like b-hop, wallboost, wigglewalk, ect.

                          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=EDIT-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                          i guess i am slow

                          lol my bad i just read the updates on the WIKI!


                          sorry mass cpu prbs latley plus vacation and many other things going on lately, but miss playing with all of you...


                          here is what i saw
                          Code:
                          Marine Vent Hopping: Marines may not hop inside vents (which force a crouched position) for the purposes of exploitatively increasing speed. A good example of such a vent is that running from Bio Hive to Vent Hive on ns_origin. 
                          
                          
                          Wiggle-walking scripts: Use of wiggle-walking scripts is prohibited. Wiggle-walking itself is not prohibited, but the automation of the act with a script pushes the advantage from minor to gamebreaking.
                          Last edited by Warmonger; 08-28-2006, 03:02 AM. Reason: i am slow!

                          do you serve a purpose or do you purposely serve

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Vent Hopping

                            Originally posted by nine hells View Post
                            I really don't know where you are getting these wild speed boosts from
                            Agreed.
                            Originally posted by nine hells View Post
                            In my opinion listening to the admins try to control this action takes more away from the game that the action itself.
                            Agreed. I'm all for no one else posting in this thread.

                            Let it die.
                            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Vent Hopping

                              Originally posted by nine hells View Post
                              I really don't know where you are getting these wild speed boosts from, when a marine walks in a vent his speed is about 70, when a marine bhops in a vent, even the best of hoppers get to only about 90.

                              The only place I can think of that you might actually be able to go maybe as fast as a walking marine is the sloped vent on origin, and I would have to argue that it was designed that way because it would have been just as easy to make a straight vent with a ladder instead of a long sloping vent(as was done between bio and vent on the same map). Bhopping in vents doesn't imbalance the game because of the aforementioned limited use. In my opinion listening to the admins try to control this action takes more away from the game that the action itself.
                              This is flat-out untrue. I can bunnyhop at near-skulk.. (err maybe gorge) speeds in certain vents. The vent from biodome to vent on origin is a prime example. W/ hopping it takes merely a few seconds, as opposed to 20 or something.


                              "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                              "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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