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  • NS:S or NS2 vote

    Flayra has setup a thread with a vote on what the community would rather see, NS:S or NS2. I'd love to hear what some of you guys have to say on it :).

    We could make either game, but what would you rather see? Preservation of the existing game on a new engine, or a new game built off a core of NS?

    Assumptions:
    - NS:Source would be NS gameplay with Half-life II quality maps, models and visuals
    - NS2 would still "feel" like NS, but would have significant changes to gameplay as well as a graphical and audio makeover. Dynamic infestation, flamethrowers and Oni smashing through structures realistically are typical features that we could implement for NS2 (we are not commiting or announcing anything like this though, we're just talking).
    - Both games would take about the same amount of time to make
    - If we made NS2, we would likely not go back and remake NS:S
    For those with access, here is the link:

    http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/foru...howtopic=98008
    Last edited by aeroripper; 09-26-2006, 05:50 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

    I don't need NS again. I've already got it. I don't need better graphics and sound. It's been 5+ years (by the time we get anything). I need a new design.

    We can debate all day long about his claim that development time isn't variable between the two options, but, given that, give me the new design, please.
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    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

      I can definitely agree with that, I would like to see NS taken in a new direction especially if its going to take a long time to make. Although, we don't have enough information to really make an informed decision on either way IMO.

      I still think NS:S would be finished sooner than NS2, if you have most of the balance questions already worked out. But if he was able to take the very successful formula we have now with NS, and inject it with fresh, new ideas, I think we would have another winner.
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      • #4
        Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

        I have all of the information I need.

        NS:S becomes either:
        • a direct port (the plan)
        • not a direct port (very possible, despite the best laid plans of mice and men)

        Either way, it meets no need of mine any better than does NS2, and I'm in no hurry.

        NS:S, on the other hand, likely DOES fail to meet needs (new design, specifically).
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #5
          Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

          i think they should just make the extra push and try to have both, i mean i cant imagine that it would be too hard to do both, or that there couldnt be third party developement devoted towards the existence of an NS source mod based off of the NS:2 game itself.
          I mean third party is what we're all about right?
          also i think that there is enough variety in the current styles that people play ns (co, ns, siege, etc.) that there would not be a shortage of people who would want to play a really good version of classic ns or co, with super amazing graphics and physics (the source physics would be TIGHT!).



          also

          ps: big question: what if the new design sucks or is too complicated to pull in new gamers?
          i mean what happens if the next NS game fails miserabley? what then!!??

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          • #6
            Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

            Now heres the interesting thing, anyone who's familiar with the limitations of the HL2 engine and SDK knows that what flayra talked about implementing with NS2 would be easily possible on the source engine, ergo, you could have both NS:S and NS2 rolled into one beautiful little package! So why the vote? Sounds like some sort of laziness to me. No offense to the devs that read this forum, but really. Realistic structure destruction (dynamic damage to the model), flamethrowers, dynamic infestation, superb graphics, sound overhaul, gameplay changes...those are ALL possible on the HL2 engine. So why give us half the product? If its going to take a long time to make anyway, combine the two and give us something stellar, something WORTH buying, instead of just saying "yeah, we're going to charge you 20 bucks for Ns with cooler graphics" like valve did with CS:S, especially considering the severely diminished playerbase as opposed to 2 years ago. People left, lots of them, and it's going to be a very tough sell to get them to come back. Flashy graphics alone probably wont cut the mustard.

            Oh, and my brother showed me something interesting today. Apparently, flamethrowers have been viable all along. Theres a mod for cs that i'm sure you've all heard of, the Warcraft 3 mod. Yeah, its lame and distorts CS to a point thats ridiculous, but theres a flamethrower ability in the mod that allows the player to shoot flames outward from the body and catch other entities (including boxes, players, etc) on fire which does tic damage over a set period of time, similar to the way lerk gas damages you. I was speaking with the developer of the plugin on another forum and he said he wrote the flamethrower mod over 2 years ago. ouch.

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            • #7
              Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

              Its faily well known to NS.com forum dewellers that the reason the flamethrower didnt make it into NS is that Flayra wanted to satisfy 3 conditions:

              It had to look good
              It had to be volumetric
              It couldnt significantly degrade FPS

              In HL you can have two of those, not all 3.

              My guess is that CS mod does not include a volumetric flame.
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              • #8
                Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                *edit* Nevermind, asked on the UWE forums instead...

                Were they still looking to make NS2 its own stand-alone engine or is Source the only thing they plan on using?
                Making a unique game engine takes a fair share of manpower and a lot of time, but you end up with something you can build future products off of at your own leisure, i.e... no Valve saying "Get the mod done with these specs by so-and-so date if you want to have our source engine licensed to you."
                Furthermore, if you make your own engine, you have a bargaining chip: say NS2 doesn't pan out, what now? Well, if you have your own engine that works well and has something to offer that Source or Havok (apologies if that's the wrong name) doesn't, license it out and fill your research budget with that.

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                • #9
                  Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                  Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                  Now heres the interesting thing, anyone who's familiar with the limitations of the HL2 engine and SDK knows that what flayra talked about implementing with NS2 would be easily possible on the source engine, ergo, you could have both NS:S and NS2 rolled into one beautiful little package! So why the vote?
                  NS2 is already planned for the Source engine. The vote isn't on what engine to use, its on whether to use that new engine for a direct port, or a whole new game.

                  Doing both would not really result in much coding overlap, since NS is a game built on and designed around the quirks of the HL1 engine. Replicating quirks on an engine that doesn't naturally display those quirks is bound to be a huge effort.

                  So anyway, I'm going to go vote for NS-2, when I get the time to make a coherant post on the NS forums.

                  edit: clarified confusing wording
                  Last edited by Kerostasis; 09-27-2006, 12:53 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                    NS2.

                    I love NS, but there are a LOT of things I could see being changed for the better. I am not a huge fan of how 'slippery' marines can be, while hopping around at short range, nor am I a fan of the principal of gaining speed from turning the mouse. There's a million other things, but mainly, I seek a larger separation in battle techniques between the two sides. Sometimes it feels like marines are more effective up-close than aliens. Which, to me, is silly.

                    In any case, if they were going to deviate from NS, while making NS:S, I think it would be a step backward. Most people would complain, it being too drastic of a change for some, and not enough for others, but almost all agreeing that it should be considered a new game altogether.

                    The devs might feel compelled to stifle creativity in the name of conservation, etc etc etc.


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                    "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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                    • #11
                      Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                      Originally posted by kormendi View Post
                      Its faily well known to NS.com forum dewellers that the reason the flamethrower didnt make it into NS is that Flayra wanted to satisfy 3 conditions:

                      It had to look good
                      It had to be volumetric
                      It couldnt significantly degrade FPS

                      In HL you can have two of those, not all 3.

                      My guess is that CS mod does not include a volumetric flame.
                      The devs of ID have plans to use a volumetric flame thrower w/ SDK following the release of TF2. That is, of course, if rumors that the pyro's weaponry is indeed volumetric. We shall see.


                      "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                      "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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                      • #12
                        Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                        Can someone explain to me Volumetric?
                        Ambriento for comm! Vote today!

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                        • #13
                          Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                          Take the base part of the word. Volume. Basically they wanted it to... ... ... have "substance" or be "enveloping," i.e... more realistic.

                          Imagine throwing a snowball. If/When you hit the person's chest, the ball spreads out to displace the energy over the larger surface area because the tension in the ball isn't great enough to hold it together (that and no matter how much you may want it to happen, your snowball isn't going to pierce the person).
                          The current limit of the HL engine basically makes fire a "hit-scan." Taking my example of a snowball, if life worked in this way, when you hit the person, they'd be covered in snow as if you hit every inch of their body with a snowball at the same time. This would apply even if you, say, touched the edge of their boot.

                          Applying the idea to NS, you end up with a flamethrower that copies TFC/CS where as long as you hit the target in any way within x distance, you do y damage over z time, guaranteed. This is a boring flamethrower.

                          The idea of having the flames being Volumetric would enable the use of a multiple-target weapon that would be able to seal off pathways while creating interesting DoT scenarios for use on aliens.

                          As a hypothetical situation, say you have a long, narrow vent that a lerk keeps poking its head out of and gassing your team and then fleeing from any reach of conventional weapons. Break out the flamethrower. Say at a maximum range of 8m, the spherical volume of the fire is 1m^3. Well, if you stick that flame into a vent, the volumetric properties would allow the flames to go FAR more than 8m into the vent (assuming its volume is less than 1m^3).

                          ----------------

                          By my examples, you can see some of the very interesting possibilities of a Volumetric flamethrower jet. By all intents and purposes, you COULD code this in the HL engine. However, you would be jury-rigging a lot of physics equations into it and you would wind up with a very very laggy weapon.

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                          • #14
                            Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                            I want to see NS:S because I want the gameplay as it is to survive longer. I would like options.

                            I don't want to see NS:S because I'm not paying money for a game I can't run on this computer. In another year or two when I get a new computer that will no longer be an issue for me.

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                            • #15
                              Re: NS:S or NS2 vote

                              Expect what you will. Your guess is as good as mine.

                              That having been said, I'm not expecting a playable beta before 2008. Granted, low expectations is a good path toward pleasant surprises, so mayby that expectation is an otherwise-unreasonable defense mechanism (against disappointment), but that's my thinking: 2008.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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