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  • Changing balance

    Balance needs to change. The change is simple (coding-wise), and would lead to much more balanced games during non-peak hours.

    1. Divide players into ? and non-? sections.
    2. Balance non-? sections across marine and alien.
    3. Random ? players into remaining marine and alien slots.

    Making this simple change would fix much of the uneven games that balance is currently creating. While a team dominated with ? could certainly win over a non-? dominated team, personal experience shows that this almost never happens.

  • #2
    Re: Changing balance

    If I understand the mathematics of how balance works - I believe this is done implicitly.

    A '?' player is assumed to have a 0.5 win/game ratio. The plugin starts with the player with the highest w/g ratio and randoms a team. Then the next highest player is placed on the opposing team.... etc. When the plugin hits the block of '?'s all at 0.5, they're alternatingly placed on opposing teams until they're all gone and then it moves to the players with less than 0.5 w/g.

    I'll try and count, next time I play, how many '?'s end up on each side and see if I'm wrong. If I am wrong, then I agree with your above suggestion.
    Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

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    • #3
      Re: Changing balance

      Is there anyway we can see our "record"

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      • #4
        Re: Changing balance

        Originally posted by xtcmen View Post
        Is there anyway we can see our "record"
        I don't believe this will ever be public, nor is it in any form that can be easily understood.
        USAR

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        • #5
          Re: Changing balance

          I always thought making your "skill" level be a K : D ratio factor only in NS maps. Making it by records doesn't really mean anything because the only way to calculate individual skill is by factoring your K : D ratio, not team wins.

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          • #6
            Re: Changing balance

            I tend to agree, basing it on games won isn't a great way to do it.
            But that was already debated to death.

            The only way to really figure out the skill of a person is by observing them and seeing how they play. It's not just about aim. A computer program can not do this. That is why the solution I thought of was to have it calculate skill based upon picks in a captains game. First picks would get a higher "level", last picks wouldn't get very much (but still be higher than those that don't play captains games)... This was more ___ (doable?) over the summer when captains games were played all the time. Not so much now.

            There is no good solution, and especially with all the non-regs, I tend to prefer amx_random to balance.
            remi.D

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            • #7
              Re: Changing balance

              K : D would punish the guy who drops nodes/chambers instead of saving for K : D-rewarding fade.

              K : D would punish the guy who rushes the phase gate instead of camping the RT.

              K : D would not help good comms.

              K : D is important because of RFK, but it's not sufficient for balance purposes.
              Last edited by Ahnteis; 01-27-2007, 03:08 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Changing balance

                Games are won skirmish-by-skirmish, and those skirmishes are intrinsically decided by the kills and deaths contained therein. There are exceptions, but not many.

                That's why, when this was considered, I suggested we look at the nominal K:D ratio of an average fade/lerk/skulk/gorge/marine/ha/jp/comm and add a modifier for each one multiplied by howevermuch time you spent as that lifeform. The only problem with this is it's spending server energy scanning for what lifeform each player is. That problem is solved by scanning only once every few seconds rather than once a frame. Say, every 20 seconds we scan each player. You could modify that to scan each slot once a second to distribute the load.

                In any case, I think this is a brilliant idea (if done right), even though xtc mentioned it. =p

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                • #9
                  Re: Changing balance

                  K:D is also not everything. Just because someone has a lot of skill does not mean they are a teamplayer, and thus not such a help to the team they are on. It's not just about player skill, it's how well they work with others as well.
                  remi.D

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                  • #10
                    Re: Changing balance

                    If they're not a team player, that's an easy thing to remedy, Remedy. Just ban them or temp them until they can listen to the comm. People like to say "I'm a good team player" and then slack off on aiming because it's difficult (I know, I've done it) but at the end of the day, bullets win games. Teamwork just concentrates the bullets.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Changing balance

                      Theres a difference in a player who can kill who jumps through the phase gate, and the player who can't kill that jumps through the phase gate. The player who can kill, will shoot skulks, fades, and fend off lerks. The player that can't kill will just die.

                      And since its based on K : D ratio, the guy who drops node/etc will be based on how good is skulk is. Obviously a good skulk would have a good K : D ratio. A good node capper will have a good K : D ratio as well because its not like that person will never see a skulk the whole game.

                      Yeah yeah I know this game is all about teamwork. Put 6 marines that have never played before, with awesome K : D ratio's on the same team, then put 6 aliens with the highest team wins on the same team and see who wins. I predict the 6 marines will just walk into the hive, causing a spawn camp and ending the game in a couple of minutes.

                      Basically make the teams like this. Take 1 player from each different vet cal team and put them on the same marine team. Have it something like this:

                      Makaveli
                      shoester
                      Chuck
                      Sandman
                      Clud King
                      duogodofdeath

                      Alien team:
                      wyzkrak
                      Pokerface
                      Ferrs Bueller
                      Blue Knight
                      Aeroripper
                      Yer mom

                      Those 6 people on the alien are the ones that come to my mind when I think of teamwork on TGNS. We all know that the people I mentioned above on the marine team rambo, don't listen to the comm sometimes, and pretty much do whatever they want on pubs. Even if they all rambo, they will probably still beat you.

                      You pretty much get the point. K : D ratio does matter in this game. They are infact helping the team when they kill people. Even if they are on the other side of the map, killing aliens, making noise, distracting aliens they are doing something. Its these little things you don't notice. If sandman is in cargo on tanith, theres going to be aliens planning an attack to kill him. In the meantime, youare capping nodes, planning an assault on enemy nodes while Sandman is disctracting them. Now here comes Wyzkrak or someone to tell me I'm a complete idiot.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Changing balance

                        Originally posted by xtcmen View Post
                        Theres a difference in a player who can kill who jumps through the phase gate, and the player who can't kill that jumps through the phase gate. The player who can kill, will shoot skulks, fades, and fend off lerks. The player that can't kill will just die.

                        And since its based on K : D ratio, the guy who drops node/etc will be based on how good is skulk is. Obviously a good skulk would have a good K : D ratio. A good node capper will have a good K : D ratio as well because its not like that person will never see a skulk the whole game.

                        Yeah yeah I know this game is all about teamwork. Put 6 marines that have never played before, with awesome K : D ratio's on the same team, then put 6 aliens with the highest team wins on the same team and see who wins. I predict the 6 marines will just walk into the hive, causing a spawn camp and ending the game in a couple of minutes.

                        Basically make the teams like this. Take 1 player from each different vet cal team and put them on the same marine team. Have it something like this:

                        Makaveli
                        shoester
                        Chuck
                        Sandman
                        Clud King
                        duogodofdeath

                        Alien team:
                        wyzkrak
                        Pokerface
                        Ferrs Bueller
                        Blue Knight
                        Aeroripper
                        Yer mom

                        Those 6 people on the alien are the ones that come to my mind when I think of teamwork on TGNS. We all know that the people I mentioned above on the marine team rambo, don't listen to the comm sometimes, and pretty much do whatever they want on pubs. Even if they all rambo, they will probably still beat you.

                        You pretty much get the point. K : D ratio does matter in this game. They are infact helping the team when they kill people. Even if they are on the other side of the map, killing aliens, making noise, distracting aliens they are doing something. Its these little things you don't notice. If sandman is in cargo on tanith, theres going to be aliens planning an attack to kill him. In the meantime, youare capping nodes, planning an assault on enemy nodes while Sandman is disctracting them. Now here comes Wyzkrak or someone to tell me I'm a complete idiot.
                        It's not that you're wrong, per se. It's just that what you're saying doesn't make the W/L calculation any less wrong.

                        Those teams, yeah, I'd expect the marines to win, and do so with impressive K/D. And when they do, they get a 1 in the win column... and W/L still functions as a measure.

                        A vet with high K/D will have more wins, right? And allow his team to cap nodes and win and stuff too? Then how is 1337ness not already factored in?
                        [volun2]
                        NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                        Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                        <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                        <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                        Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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                        • #13
                          Re: Changing balance

                          Its not factored in when a vet with a 50-2 score loses because of a team of ? marks. And thats when individual skill comes in. When your with a team of ? marks, you can't expect them to use teamwork, but if they can kill a skulk 1 on 1, then thats good enough to get bye.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Changing balance

                            Originally posted by xtcmen View Post
                            Its not factored in when a vet with a 50-2 score loses because of a team of ? marks.
                            The attributes of the "team of ? marks" that cause him to lose are not going to survive on the server long enough to significantly contaminate his statistical weight. It's more often than not, for games from which this plugin captures data, that both teams will have generally competent players. If dude is soooo good, his force will serve as a tipping point, causing him to win if the other team doesn't have a similar force.

                            A great, great majority of the games which actually capture data for the balance plugin are populated largely, if not exclusively, by players you and I would describe as "regulars". That might be a *bit* less true given our new server and recent influx of new faces, but the "newness" of both will soon return to be included in what I described in the first sentence of this paragraph.
                            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Changing balance

                              All I'm saying is that making balance factor in K : D ratio will balance a game better, causing better games each time the game is balanced. Both of you agreed with me to some extend and I can understand if your too lazy to code it.

                              Another solution could be combining the W-L ratio, and your K : D ratio, and taking the average of both of them to determine your "level" on the server.

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