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  • Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

    Ok, so today I see Juggernaut telling someone that pancake lerking is a bannable offense. I don't understand the logic behind making pancaking illegal in Beta 4a. Bunnyhopping is a blatant engine exploit, yet it's tolerated and even accepted and encouraged. Unlike bunnyhopping, lerk flight requires energy to perform. Anyone ever lerked and died while you try to flap away, yet you're out of energy? Happens a lot unless you get the adrenaline upgrade. Pancaking requires a lot of energy to perform, which in itself is a reason to not ban it. The lerk is sacrificing the energy he has to evade damage, which is something that almost all aliens do. The fade can perform the same action by blinking from ceiling to floor, why don't we ban that too? The ability to pancake has always been there, it's simply that no one bothered to perform it before Beta 4, when doing it suddenly became easy because everyone could do it without adrenaline management. The exploitive part of it is the laggage of the hitbox, which happens to all aliens to some extent. The uncapped vertical speed of a lerk is what allows this bug to be exploited to a heavier extent than most other aliens. Since we're banning it because of this, let's prevent lerks from flying up or down at all, since it's difficult to hit them when they dive down at you. I hope I've presented an argument which makes sense so we can clear this up.
    (Also note that this exploit isn't banned by CAL, the reason being it requires a level of skill to use in B4a just like the bhop; it was supposedly going to be delt with if B4 was around for the season)
    Last edited by TheAdj`; 05-20-2004, 08:01 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

    Originally posted by TheAdj`
    Bunnyhopping is a blatant engine exploit, yet it's tolerated and even accepted and encouraged.
    It's encouraged?

    What does NS.org have to say about "pancaking?" I've never seen it effectively used in NS, only combat. Has a pancaking lerk ever turned the tide of a marine rush?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

      Originally posted by TheFeniX
      It's encouraged?

      What does NS.org have to say about "pancaking?" I've never seen it effectively used in NS, only combat. Has a pancaking lerk ever turned the tide of a marine rush?
      I've seen it used in a scrim, when beta 4 first came out. CAL said it wasn't an issue. With the adren cost of flight now, I don't think it's somthing that should be a problem, since if you do pancake, you can't do it for long, and you can't fill the room with spores like you used to.

      Bunny hopping is encouraged, flay could have taken it out, but it reamains for aliens. Not to mention a trip to the NS.org forums and looking for advice threads from high ranking claners, most will tell you how to bunny hop, and how to bind it to mwheel, some provide scripts.
      - 52

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      • #4
        Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

        For those who don't know this, outside parties, including Flayra, have had only as much influence in these decisions in the past as our regulars and admins allowed them to. The same will hold true in this case.

        We've never issued an official rule about pancaking. The universal rule, which may not even be written down here anywhere for all I know, is that you don't exploit bugs. There are exceptions to this, and the goal is to preserve gameplay, but... for the most part... intentionally explointing bugs is a no-no.

        Originally posted by TheAdj`
        The exploitive part of it is the laggage of the hitbox, which happens to all aliens to some extent. The uncapped vertical speed of a lerk is what allows this bug to be exploited to a heavier extent than most other aliens.
        Pancaking? Sure, throw in some bacon and hash browns while you're at it. But if you're exploiting a bug, it's pretty much not allowed by default. The dev oversight that is alien bunnyhopping has since been blatantly incorporated into gameplay by the devs, so that's an elegant exception. Marine bunnyhopping hasn't been (quite the contrary, in fact), so you being kicked for doing that (after a warning) is a reasonable expectation.

        Unless I missed something, I think your quote above offers plenty of argument for keeping pancaking on the list of things to avoid on our server. Unless I misread you, or unless you're wrong, the already-unreliable hitbox of the moving alien is moreso bugged by the uncapped vertical speed of the lerk. I don't see a need to defend that application of the unit, and I don't see a need for pancaking on the server.

        I remain open to discussing this further, but it's kickable for now. "Bannable" is such a harsh term. Very few acts will get you banned on the spot. Pretty much, many things are "kickable," and only defiant repetition is your most dependable path to a ban.
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

          What 52 Cards posted is the reason it's allowed in competitive play. The main reason pancaking was an issue in Beta4 like none before it was that you could pancake and spore/bite with wreckless abandon until you got tired of doing it. It's no longer the case, however, as you need energy to fly once more. My reason for putting the line in that you quoted was to state what pancaking actually does for those that don't understand it. Fades can and often do the same thing, yet no one bans that. Why should there be a difference? A fade that blinks from ceiling to floor exhibits the same properties a lerk does, people just get angry when it's a lerk because it becomes more difficult to hit the lerk when it moves in a vertical fashion like the fade does. People like to kill lerks easily, and an evasive lerk is highly annoying (ask anyone that played combat with me today, I flew around marine start for ages until I finally had to flap away, and I wasn't even pancaking). Does it alter the outcome of games? In some instances, I think it can, like anything else done in a game. Bunnyhopping is encouraged because it's an ability that lets aliens move faster and to be more evasive, all of which aliens are supposed to be. I don't see how pancaking is any different than bhopping or a fade blinking from ceiling to floor. They're all exploitive of the engine, yet they all require a decent dose of skill to perform in combat against marines that can aim. Ask any of my clanmates, a pancaking lerk is NOT invincible, they're just as killable with good aim as anything else, you just can't spray and pray. They blast me out of the sky with shotguns almost daily, even if I do pancake against them (which I do, mainly to improve their aim against it after we got nubbed in the CAL Pre-season by a Beta 4 pancake lerk that rocked our world). BTW, Juggernaut's exact words were "If you keep pancaking, you will be banned". I didn't substitute kick for ban, that was a direct quote. I also didn't appreciate him recycling base today because I said "GG no upgrades at 7 minutes" when we had had the res to do so. It's very annoying to get raped by Hive 2 skulks when you're a 0/0 marine, and no upgrades are forthcoming despite having the power to get them. Telling me to "keep bitching at him" with a threatening tone in his voice wasn't very appropriate either. Just thought I'd make that note.

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          • #6
            Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

            I didnt say bannable. I said its against the rules not bannable, big difference. and I reason I recycle was cause you kept bitching like I said if you keep bitchin Ill recycle I had 200 res, upgrades werent the problem, the problem was that the fades kept killing base. then you started bitch so I recycled the Ip. That how I comm dont like switch teams if Im comm
            Last edited by Juggernaut; 05-20-2004, 09:51 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

              Originally posted by Juggernaut
              I didnt say bannable I said its against the rules not bannable big difference
              You said -
              "I will report you to the admins which will probably lead to you being baned"

              Doesn't really matter in relation to the issue as to what you said, but being wrong is a bad practice.
              - 52

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                Doesnt matter if it takes no skill or heaps of it. If it exploits the games engine in such a way to make a unit practically unkillable it is my opinion that it not be allowed.

                Pancaking, while yes it does take energy, renders the lerk unkillable ( or very close to it ) due to the uncapped vertical speed as has already been said. That in my opinion is an exploit and is and should remain kickable.

                And I dont give a rats patootie if CAL says its ok. This isnt CAL. We arent top clanners ( for the most part ).

                I will kick a pancaking lerk if I see a player persist after a warning. If pancaking is allowed on this server then I will stop warning/kicking for it.

                Now I just wish that I could find a way to stop scripts :D (<-- personal opinion alert! )

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                  Any more discussion of what was said on the server between Adj and Jugg will result in this thread being closed. Don't be trivial in this thread. Focus on what will be important in a week's time.

                  For those of you arguing FOR pancaking, please pay me the respect of not simply assuming I tacitly agree with the content or tone of anything else anyone is saying. Take my words, no one elses, for mine. Within the context of this thread, I'll be very clear when someone else's views represent how I feel. This is a touchy subject, and I see no benefit in people dropping one-liners.

                  Regarding fades, I will not hesitate to kick someone once I realize their primary use of the unit is a learned and carefully-executed exploit which creates a hitbox oversight. I've never had that happen, and that won't keep me from kicking someone if I ever knowingly encounter that situation.

                  Bunnyhopping is not allowed simply because it requires skill, or because it gives the aliens a needed ability. I think it's more complicated than that. I understand bunnyhopping's acceptance to be a long process, encouraged mostly by the fact that, in short (and admitting that your points may contribute to this conclusion), it helps gameplay in the long run. Or, at the very least, that's the majorative opinion.

                  I have yet to see how pancaking solves some problem or really helps gameplay. I'm confident that a widely-held perception of pancaking as solving a problem or somehow helping gameplay would urgently result in the manuever's acceptace. Until then, I think it's going to be an uphill battle for anyone supporting it.

                  We've agreed that, while a lerk is pancaking, it has an exceptionally-"bugged" hitbox, due to the uncapped vertical speed. One of your arguments for allowing pancaking is that energy is now required to do this, solving the problem of someone being able to do it "infinitely" (for lack of a better term). Why are we (not just TG, but anyone arguing for or against this) going to allow an exploit we did not allow before only because the exploit is doable now less often? We did not previously disallow this only due to its infinite duration. Rather, it was disallowed due to the hitbox bugs it creates. The infinite characteristic simply gained the hitbox bug quick attention. Despite removing the "endless" problem by introducing an energy cost, the hitbox exploit remains, does it not? If that's true, are you arguing that "n seconds of knowledgable and intentional hitbox exploiting" is acceptable when "infinite seconds of knowledgable and intentional hitbox explointing" was not?

                  The bold text isn't confrontational. It's meant to draw attention to the point of my post amidst what could arguably be described as excessive stream-of-conciousness.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                    Sorry for going somewhat off-topic, that had just happened and I was mildly irritated. I'll stay objective this post. Tycho, it doesn't render a lerk unkillable. It's quite killable, it happens to me all the time and to others. I just saw one of eR's lerks get shotgunned trying to pancake away from us in a scrimmage, by one lone marine. They're 100% as killable as any other lerk, they're just not as easy to aim at, and they're more difficult to kill due to hitbox lag. So are leaping skulks, try shotgunning them in the face as they leap at you, most likely you won't kill it. There are screenshots all over of such things. Celerity skulks are the same way, damn difficult to hit due to laggy hitboxes. We don't ban that, despite the fact that people exploit it by getting celerity and leaping/bhopping around, knowing they're more difficult to hit the hitboxes. Lerks that pancake can 1) Be more durable in combat situations 2) Make lerks more versatile and useful, promoting their use. Wyz, we've always been able to pancake lerk, it's just that not many people did it due to the energy: it was cost prohibitive to do it in B3 and before. I knew about it well before then: I always swoop when I fly because I can maintain speed when weave up and down without flapping. The acceleration on the weave down makes up for the speed you lose going up. It only became very noticeable in B4, when there was no energy cost. It became a problem because a lerk could fly into the room, pancake, and gas everyone in the room with little damage being done to him, due to the speed with which he could pancake. We first encountered a pancake lerk in our very first CAL match about a month ago while B4 was still new, and he was damn near impossible to kill with celerity, you just couldn't kill him because all he did was pancake and gas; he never directly attacked unless you were very vulnerable. That can't happen anymore. You can't pancake fast enough to avoid damage like that now and be able to gas/bite marines. In fact once you adapt to it, you can shoot pancaking lerks nearly as well, you just have to trail behind them with your fire instead of on the model, just like skulks that leap perpendicular to your position; simply fire behind them to hit them. I think the utility it adds to the lerk beats out the fact that it can be exploited. On TG is should be allowed, but monitored. If someone just gets adrenaline and pancakes all over the map, never really flying, then they should be warned not to abuse it. It is a valid tactic in B4a, and it should be allowed when it's used in moderation, just as ceiling/floor blinking is allowed when it's not abused.

                    EDIT - Tycho, there's a variable that blocks ; and wait, effectively killing most scripting. Keep in mind that eliminates all scripting for the most part, even text binds that use impulse commands (Pressing a key that yells for a medpack and says +MEDPACK+ on the screen). I'm sure you look down on scripting, but as you mentioned, that's thankfully just your opinion and no that of Valve or the NS Devs, who btw removed the blatant exploitable scripting variables already. Not like you can do much in NS with scripts anyways.
                    Last edited by TheAdj`; 05-21-2004, 12:18 AM. Reason: add in a line about scripts

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                      I'm not sure I buy your argument about comparing a learned and practiced hitbox bug (pancaking) to a hitbox bug that is a side effect of a unit's built-in slot ability (leap).

                      I'm off to bed. Thank you for the orderly presentation of ideas. I expect the same effort from those who oppose this (myself included).

                      More tomorrow from me, I suspect.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                        No No Para, I know you can kill them its just super-hard. Very few of us can aim as well as clanners here on this server ( just look at me, i cant hit a barn sometimes ).

                        And with the celerity skulks not being able to be hit, that isnt the skulks fault so much as the laggy hitboxes. What a pancaking lerk does is take those laggy hitboxes and capitalize on it knowingly.

                        And I love those little scripts that call for a med or ammo with text, and hell I use an impulse bind myself ( all clear! ), what I dont like is the lastinv one that maximizes its potential, the shoty bhop script as well as a few others. Just a personal opinion though, so nothing against anyone there.

                        Sorry for the disjointed post as well, its late and im trying to do like 10 things at once :(

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                          you know what would be real ironic? if we all sat down one morning and had a good dabate over breakfest and all had a nice big stack of PANCAKES!

                          nah i have nothing to add cause i don't know what pancaking is, but this thread is making me hungy...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                            Originally posted by RoseMarysBaby
                            you know what would be real ironic? if we all sat down one morning and had a good dabate over breakfest and all had a nice big stack of PANCAKES!

                            nah i have nothing to add cause i don't know what pancaking is, but this thread is making me hungy...


                            Notice the insane amount of detail on the complex lerk model.


                            I love gaming, mmmmmmmm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Pancake Lerking - Legal exploit or not?

                              the lastinv script you refer to is a client side slot changer that performs the same function as lastinv, simply using the slots instead of a serverside call (which is how it should be anyways). Bhop scripts are easily replaced by the mwheel (I know, I'm still learning how to use the mwheel in place of a 3jump script, mainly due to it's unreliability in combat). The one thing I dislike that's scripted a lot is a jump/duck script, which utilizes the "fling marines 5 miles" bug when you bite them. This is being fixed shortly by the devs, and is noted as a bug.

                              As for people not exploiting it wyz, I know for a fact certain individuals use celerity mostly because it makes them difficult to hit due to the lagged boxes, and a leaping celerity skulk is probably the most difficult thing to kill besides a blinking celerity fade. Many a time I've blasted a skulk that leaps all around the room repeatedly, only to empty my shotty on him and still be killed by him, usually with 40-50 hp left after at least 4 out of 8 shotgun shells hit home. There are worse things than pancake lerking, it was a non-issue until B4, and it should be one in B4a, as long as it's used tastefully like I mentioned at the bottom of my previous post. I just have bad memories of when I first started playing and 3 fades would blink around a ceiling, nearly invulnerable to attack because of the hitbox problems with fades. That always pissed me off, and I don't want to blatantly harass people like that, so I try to minimize my pancakage, if I use it at all (rare outside of "omg about to die" situations).

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