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  • #91
    Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

    Originally posted by TheAdj`
    Anyone can do anything in a computer game. Anyone can be an awesome marine or a great fade. Anyone can use a tactic or an exploit. The argument is whether it's right or wrong to use it, and on what basis.
    Hence the reason these threads exist: To discuss whether we classify these as "part of the game" or "exploits," not to say "Well, X believes Y therefore you guys should do the exact same thing."

    I'd say we DO know better than most players, because we're responsible and won't say "omg that should be removed because <insert stupid reasoning here>".
    So, any suggestion made by an everyday player (or pubber) is automatically stupid?

    We don't. Individually and as a team, we're better than anything a pub server could put forward.
    I would hope so.

    We could use no scripts or "engine exploits" or modified sprites/models/sounds, and still pound people to pieces like we do now. If you don't believe me, we'll organize a 7v7 tonight, wmd against tg regulars. You know the outcome already.
    Considering how few ways there would be to prove that everyone runs basically "stock?" I'll pass, but I will grant that after playing with a few .wmd guys: I would say you could win based on the amount of teamwork you'd have to have.

    Then again, just being a good player/clan does not inherently make you better at deciding what unbalances the game unfairly than an average player.

    Bunnyhopping isn't a flaw in any FPS, it's only in Quake based games.
    I meant to say "Any FPS based off the Quake engine" but I screwed it up.

    In fact it was enhanced in certain Quake games by making so that if you hit the jump key while in the air, you jump as soon as you touch the ground, negating the need to bind jump to a mousewheel or use a bhop script (_special or otherwise).
    And it's a debacle that turns every game of CTF in Jedi Academy or Outcast into a retard hoping race. Granted, I blame Raven more than anyone for that.

    If he did not want aliens to bunnyhop, he WOULD have fixed it already.
    If he wanted every skulk to be able to move that fast, he should have included the script by default. This gives anyone with a script a pretty decent advantage over one without. Gunning down a skulk (even one strafing pretty well) isn't hard. But considering the S type strafing patern that these scripts can let you do, that skulk usually gets a bite on me before I can kill him. Doesn't sound that bad, but he should have been dead before he got within 10 feet of me.


    Pistol rate of fire is capped at 5 shots per second now, which is humanly possible to do.
    Wyz already hit on the ability to be able to hammer off rounds that fast and not have your crosshair move. I think someone would be hard-pressed to do that.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

      Respect is a skill, a social skill, I remember when I first got here, I was very rude. Things change, realized I was an A-S-S, hell I remember when me and cobra were at each others necks! Although I would have won if it came down to that, bring it on cobra! Even though your twice my size but still, Bring it on! :icon26:

      Ocationally I still am one but it wont be long for me to snap out of it.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

        If you're going to state things about scripts, at least use them so you know exactly what you're talking about. A script for bunnyhopping does nothing more than spam jump a certain number of times. It doesn't "move in an s-shape" or anything else. You do that yourself from moving the mouse in a pattern. You get the same effect by binding jump to the mousewheel. Bunnyhopping is 100% skill, nothing takes the skill out of it. Nothing that autojumps for you anymore (_special), only ways to make the jump command easier to execute at the right moment. It's easier to bhop in quake games than hl because of how jump works.
        Pistol scipts don't keep the crosshair in the same spot, all it does it fire the pistol multiple times. It sucks for hitting moving targets, and if you lose tracking, you miss with however many bullets it's scripted to shoot with. Very unreliable compared to normal fire. At best it's most useful for sitting skulks. A skulk that's sitting still shouldn't expect to live long, pistol script or not. I know I can empty my pistol just as fast manually as with the mwheel or my double action pistol script, and I'm much more accurate doing it manually. The script has it's use, but it's not perfect. Plus most people have badly written pistol scripts, which cause them to move in only one direction because they have far too many commands and it takes too long to execute. Scripting is probably the one thing most people can't do in NS. Takes some knowledge to write a good script.

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        • #94
          Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

          Originally posted by TheAdj`
          Pistol scipts don't keep the crosshair in the same spot, all it does it fire the pistol multiple times.
          Yes, while keeping the crosshair where you're aiming it. The action of clicking the mouse very quickly makes it more difficult for the average person to keep a steady aim with the pistol, but the script means you don't have to worry about that and so your aim is steadier. I don't understand your logic for how it sucks against moving targets; how do you lose tracking within the space of the split second it takes to empty those shots? If someone can't keep a bead on the skulk for that long then certainly they're going to do even worse without the script, right? Assuming you aren't setting it to unload the full clip all at once then it works perfectly well against a mobile target.

          Even against stationary skulks, the script makes it easier to pistol kill them as fast as possible with no room for mistakes. Simply put, one click is easier and more accurate than multiple fast clicks. Also the script is more likely to reach the absolute peak speed than a person is. Thus, pistol scripts give you an advantage. Can you at least admit that? Why do you insist on denying it when it's so obvious? We're not saying it's the perfect kill-every-skulk-guaranteed weapon or that it's a replacement for skill. Don't try to respond to different claims than are being made to make your argument look better.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

            Originally posted by TheAdj`
            Bunnyhopping is 100% skill, nothing takes the skill out of it.
            To escape symantec loopholes, let us refer to the modifications that players make to their default install within the context of bunnyhopping preparation as "toothpick" (a random word). Why do people toothpick if bunnyhopping is 100% skill? You can't say that maintaining the same exact and constant speed on a cross-country drive is 100% skill as you use Cruise Control for the whole trip. It takes the weight out of the claim.

            Originally posted by TheAdj`
            Pistol scipts don't keep the crosshair in the same spot, all it does it fire the pistol multiple times. At best it's most useful for sitting skulks.
            The argument was that a far majority of all Natural Selection players cannot hold their mouse as still without the script as they can with the script (among other things). Do you not understand how irrelevant your personal abilities are in this argument? This argument is not about you. Consider the bigger picture. Do you honestly believe that most Natural Selection players can hold a crosshair perfectly still while they frantically shoot at a skulk? Or do you just think the abilities and dependencies of the average player are irrelevant when discussing scripts' effects on gameplay due to your own personal abilities and talents causing you to experience only a negligible enhancement from the scripts that you're going out of your way to use (a silly claim that we'll accept for the sake of argument)?
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            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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            • #96
              Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

              Originally posted by Zek
              Why do you insist on denying it when it's so obvious? We're not saying it's the perfect kill-every-skulk-guaranteed weapon or that it's a replacement for skill. Don't try to respond to different claims than are being made to make your argument look better.
              We can't discuss what causes rain when you won't even admit there are clouds in the sky. You have to be able to agree on the most basic of facts.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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              • #97
                Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                Obvious are the imbalances created by system configurations (be they hardware or software [legitimate client modifications]) -

                I think the point from Wyz/Zek is that "They exist." with no claims as to their inherent "goodness or badness."

                The point from Adj is that "Scripts and crosshairs are freely available, to the point of being posted about in this thread, and create only slight advantage to any user. The imbalance created is so slight as to be ignored altogether. True imbalance comes from the skill of the player and the power of his/her system."

                So much for the summary.

                I would agree that the crosshairs and scripts (as I've tried them all) create little advantage. I'm better with the mwheel pistol than I am with the script. So - slight hardware advantage vs. a person with no wheel. I'm better with the bhop script than I am without (tho' I'm not "good" with either - bhop is more than just "timing" on the jumps that the script covers up). So - slight software advantage, but very slight. I have the infamous shotgun crosshair - and I've sniped all of 2 aliens with it. Killing aliens with the shotgun is knowing more about where the *alien* hitbox is and the range of the shotgun. I used to be stupid with the shotty - firing as tho' it were an lmg when the skulk was 30+ meters away. Now my reaction time and confidence (big thing is the confidence) are better and I'm able to hold fire until the alien is within range of (what I now know) is multiple pellets. The crosshair didn't do anything other than make clear what I was already doing. The crosshair gave me no advantage beyond what I already had.

                The biggest improvement in my game came when I upgraded my computer. I used to have a 1 GHz box with a 4x AGP -- that bought me 30 fps tops and in raging battles (I remember co_kestrel most of all) with spores + umbra + 3 fades + marines all over the place, I'd drop to less than 10 fps. Now I have a 2 GHz box with 8x AGP -- I peg 100 fps all the time and rarely drop below 85 fps. Huge change in my playing. I could track things!

                I'm a good player because I'm smart and I *know* what my opponent is going to do. I hear well and I can predict. That's all. I'm a crappy shot and can't bhop worth a flop - but I can out-think my enemy and that compensates for all my skill deficiencies. No script or crosshair will ever replace that - one true imbalance is the ability of your enemy to know what you're going to do before you do.

                Yes I read Sun Tzu. Several times. So should you.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                  Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                  To escape symantec loopholes, let us refer to the modifications that players make to their default install within the context of bunnyhopping preparation as "toothpick" (a random word). Why do people toothpick if bunnyhopping is 100% skill? You can't say that maintaining the same exact and constant speed on a cross-country drive is 100% skill as you use Cruise Control for the whole trip. It takes the weight out of the claim.
                  Bunnyhopping isn't an exact and constant speed by even the best bunnyhoppers. It's 100% skill because nothing you can do takes the skill out of it. Jumping is the easy part of bhopping, the mouse movement is what is difficult and actually gains you your speed. A script doesn't do jack except spam jump 3 times so you can get around hl's crappy jump setup. If this were Quake2, you wouldn't even need that, thus making it simpler to do (many people strafe jump or bhop in q2, it's easier). The only preparation people make is finding whether a 3jump script or the mousewheel is easier for them to use to jump. The real skill in bhopping is the mouse movement, which no script can do for you.

                  Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                  The argument was that a far majority of all Natural Selection players cannot hold their mouse as still without the script as they can with the script (among other things). Do you not understand how irrelevant your personal abilities are in this argument? This argument is not about you. Consider the bigger picture. Do you honestly believe that most Natural Selection players can hold a crosshair perfectly still while they frantically shoot at a skulk? Or do you just think the abilities and dependencies of the average player are irrelevant when discussing scripts' effects on gameplay due to your own personal abilities and talents causing you to experience only a negligible enhancement from the scripts that you're going out of your way to use (a silly claim that we'll accept for the sake of argument)?
                  If (1)PubNub can't kill a skulk with a pistol normally, he certainly won't kill it with a pistol script any more reliably. That's all you need to say about a pistol script. If you can't aim, a script won't help you. If you can aim, a script may help you. If you jerk the mouse around that much by pressing mouse1 several times, you should probably do something about that. find something stable to rest the bottom of your hand on to stabilize the mouse, because you shouldn't flop the mouse about like you're having a seizure using the pistol. Try turning your sensitivity down until you get smooth fluid motion so you don't jerk around trying to pistol a skulk. If you can track a skulk moving aorund with a pistol long enough to kill it, then you don't need to script to begin with. It's hard to accurately follow a skulk with a pistol script because the moment you press the button the first time you have to keep the crosshair on it, which is no easy task keeping it precisely on the skulk. No spray on the pistol, either you have it right on or you miss. If you can't aim, a pistol script accentuates your crappy aim, because you'll empty all the bullets into the floor/wall/teammate before you manage to hit the skulk. I use myself as an example because I'm not a great shot and all. The pistol script doesn't improve my crappy aim. Don't make this into something on me wyz. I'm a mediocre shot at best, definitely in the average crowd as far as marine goes, and definitely not a good clan marine.

                  Edit: I'm with stupid was right on. Take his que.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                    Originally posted by TheAdj`
                    It's 100% skill because nothing you can do takes the skill out of it.
                    Your chocolate chip cookie is 100% wheat because nothing you can do takes the wheat out of it. Do you see the error in saying that bunnyhopping with the aid of a client modification is 100% skill? What you're arguing (and not saying) is that bunnyhopping with the aid of a client modification will require some skill 100% of the time, because nothing you can do will remove the skill completely. That's VERY different than saying that bunnyhopping with a client modification is 100% skill. VERY different. To anyone who can realize the difference, you lose credibility when you make such a claim.

                    Originally posted by TheAdj`
                    If you can aim, a script may help you.
                    Herein lies progress. Enjoy the chocolate chip cookie. :)
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                    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                    • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                      Scripts obviously do give an advantage. Pistol scripts can allow you to fire faster then you normally would and make it easier to aim whilst doing so. Since scripts are allowed in CAL, they are commonly used by most but not all clanners. I myself use a pistol script, and a bunnyhop script, and i also have those nifty "omg need meds, call given" chatscripts.

                      I have nothing wrong with scripts of any sort except exploit scripts such as no adren leap etc. Scripting is very much part of the game, atleast on a competitive level, and it takes some time to actually learn to write effective and clean scripts. I personally like how there are so many nifty things you can do with the Hl engine, such as movement techniques, custom models, sprites, sounds, etc. It makes the game much more interesting to me because there are so many more things you can learn and improve on other then just your aim. People who take the time to learn things such as marine strafejumping, wallstrafing, exploiting knockback effects, bunnyhopping and all that jazz are showing that they are willing to put in the effort to learn new techniques that will better their game.

                      You could probably compare scripts to steroids, but even if steroids became legal in sports, it would not come down to a battle of the steroids. Huge amounts of skill would still be required to win. Scripts can help you in some cases and can hinder you in others, a poorly written pistol script can screw you over since you cant move while shooting, but a good script such as mine has no such effect. However, if i were to give my script to a random pubber or NSPlayer, the chances of it making him any better are very slim. Scripts are the neat new Nikes to the track runner, sure they can make you run a faster, have better traction then your opponent, but if you arent fit and trained, your going to lose out anyways.

                      Scripting, bunnyhopping, aiming, special movement techniques, are all part of the game, whether they are done through exploits in the HL code doesnt matter, because if Flayra deems them ok, they are officially part of the game, and its up to you to decide whether you want to learn how to do it or not. A good player will own you with or without his scripts to help him, but the scripts can help him gain that edge over his opponent when it matters most.

                      i realise that above post prolly repeated points a few times, some parts prolly make no sense, or have nothing to do with anything but frankly i dont care im going to sleep

                      Comment


                      • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                        Originally posted by bobislongenough
                        Scripts are the neat new Nikes to the track runner, sure they can make you run a faster, have better traction then your opponent, but if you arent fit and trained, your going to lose out anyways.
                        Well said. That's far more reasonable than claiming they offer no benefit at all.

                        I enjoy reading the steroids analogy, as I considered using it myself. Again, well said.
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                        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                        • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                          How is binding jump to mwheel a client modification? It's not. Some people use 3jump in lieu of a mwheel bind, which gives the same effect (3jump is similar to mwheel). Considering the script performs the same function as mwheel (some people can't use the mwheel, due to not having one or having other things bound to it), it should be considered the same as the mwheel. Stop attacking my logic.

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                          • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                            Originally posted by TheAdj`
                            How is binding jump to mwheel a client modification? It's not. Some people use 3jump in lieu of a mwheel bind, which gives the same effect (3jump is similar to mwheel). Considering the script performs the same function as mwheel (some people can't use the mwheel, due to not having one or having other things bound to it), it should be considered the same as the mwheel. Stop attacking my logic.
                            Don't consider it an attack on your logic. Consider it a relentless pursuit of understanding in the interest of intelligent discussion.

                            To answer your question, and at risk of sounding like a smart-aleck, binding jump to mwheel is a client modification because it modifies your client. Or do you have a different definition of a client modification?

                            The client has been modified to offer an ability that, to hear you talk, is 100% skill. In truth, most everyone here agrees, the client modification is designed to enhance (to a debatable degree) your ability to perform an act in the game. Yes, the act is possible without the client modification, but you're more likely to perform the act with the aid of the client modification. You know this, and this is why you make the modification.

                            That's not logic. That's fact. The only person fighting facts in this thread is you.
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                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                            Comment


                            • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                              I think we need to define client modification. I don't see changing your control bindings and such as a client modification. It's a personal preference based on your known abilities. I'm left handed, therefore I can't readily use the default setup. Am I committing a client modification in order to allow myself to play better by changing my setup to the arrow keys? While you can go on technicalities and say "you are modifying the default setup in order to gain an advantage", the reality is that it's a personal preference based on my ability. You can't reasonably ask someone to play like that, just like you can't reasonably ask people to use the default netcode settings. You can't reasonably ask someone to bunnyhop because the default key setup isn't geared to it. One in-game key change can allow you to bhop. I'm certain somewhere in this thread someone had the mindset of "if you can't change it in the in-game control options, then you shouldn't do it". Well that's what we're talking about. If you want to get into technicalities changing your controls using the in-game menu is actually scripting, because scripting is merely the use of binds and aliases to allow you to interact with the engine. Changing those options to alter the controls changes binds, and is therefore scripting. We're not arguing technicalities wyz.

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                              • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                                Originally posted by TheAdj`
                                I think we need to define client modification.
                                I think only one person here needs to fabricate a definition for client modification, and I think that person is you. There was a time when words had definitions. Thanks, Clinton.

                                Take the steroids example bob referenced. You're an olympic athlete and steroids have been made legal. Are you going to deny you use steroids, instead demanding that you're simply changing your body to meet your personal preferences? That's undefendable. Your USING them is defendable (hell, it's endorsed!), but your claim that you're NOT using them when you ARE is .. is.. I don't even know what to call it! Ha! You're using steroids! You have good REASONS for using steroids, but look the players in the face and tell them you're using steroids.

                                If you don't... if you can't even tell people what you're doing... you lose credibility. You look and sound foolish at best. It's not just me demanding this accountability of you. You're the only clanner I've ever seen who claimed that nothing was being changed because it enhanced your ability to perform an act. Countless clanners will justify those changes, but none other, to my knowledge, will deny them being made for this reason.
                                Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                                Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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