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  • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

    Originally posted by Wyzcrak
    To answer your question, and at risk of sounding like a smart-aleck, binding jump to mwheel is a client modification because it modifies your client. ***Or do you have a different definition of a client modification?***
    You asked if I had a different definition, so I gave you one. Using my definition, my argument is sound. Using yours, it's a contradiction.

    Oh, and now you're not attacking my logic, you're attacking me by saying "you're the only one that has a problem with ...". Im with stupid said it well when he said something to the effect of "the advantage given with such a modification is so insignificant compared to the skill involved as to remove the advantage given by using the modification. Attack my argument, not me or the reasonable logic used to formulate the argument.

    Comment


    • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

      I like bob's argument a lot better than yours, Adj. He doesn't try to pretend that scripts don't improve his game, and instead argues that making tweaks to the client to improve your game is an acceptable benefit to those dedicated enough to look into it. Personally I'd still rather that scripts that remove an intended difficulty from the game(i.e. pistol scripts removing the repeat clicks) be out of the picture, but I can accept that it's impossible to selectively remove scripts and we don't have much choice but to deal with them.

      Adj, you're not really making an argument so much as trying to back up claims that pretty much everyone here knows are false. Bunny hopping with a mousewheel is NOT 100% skill. There is a skill to correctly timing your jumps, a rather difficult one that does take quite some time to pull off reliably, and the mousewheel/3jump removes that. Don't get me wrong; I myself use the mousewheel to bunnyhop and I don't have a problem with it or 3jump. I can name a number of reasons why I feel it's a justifiable "script" but I won't get into it because that's not what you're arguing about at all.

      To say that something is 100% skill, you are implying that skill is the only factor that influences your ability to pull it off. Let's look at this with numbers:

      Let's say, theoretically, that bunnyhopping can be divided into two skills. 90% of the skill is proper air movement. The remaining 10% of the skill is timing your jumps(please don't even try to deny that it takes some skill to do this). Now, if we start using the mousewheel or 3jump to help with our bunnyhopping, we are now guaranteed to time the jump properly every time. Thus we have completely removed 10% of the skill from the equation. Bunnyhopping with this new crutch now only takes 90% of the original amount of skill. Thus, the use of the mousewheel or 3jump has reduced the amount of skill necessary to bunnyhop. It doesn't matter if you were good at timing your jumps or not, nobody can pull it off every single time so your game has obviously been improved. If you could do it just as well yourself, you wouldn't waste your effort using a script.

      Going back to the pistol argument, you could say that 90% of the skill is aiming the crosshair and the other 10% is clicking as fast as possible without sacrificing aim. It's the same thing. It works with both a script and the mousewheel as well, for that matter. Don't try to exaggerate our side of the debate by acting like you have to be having a seizure to throw off the aim with your mouse(that's a logical fallacy we like to call a straw man); it's simply more difficult for the average person to concentrate on aiming as effectively when he has to click very fast at the same time. That much is a fact, and simply denying it or working around it won't change that.

      Now, whether or not you consider the mousewheel to be in the same vein as a script is completely a matter of opinion, but I'd say it's a completely unorthodox use of a bind that only works on one "button," so it's at least a trick of sorts. Using the mousewheel in this way basically floods the console with commands in order to achieve the desired effect, which is not its intended function at all. It's true that anyone can bind something to the mousewheel if they want, but anyone can download a script if they want to almost as easily. I don't think categorizing things in black and white and using that to justify them is a valid way of doing things in this case. Script, "special" bind, it's all semantics and the heart of this issue is the same regardless of how you want to think of them. Besides, your original argument was that the use of a 3jump script did not make bunnyhopping any easier which is blatantly false.

      Let me ask you something. In 1.04, people would use the mousewheel to fire the pistol ludicrously fast, way faster than possible with the mouse button. Did you feel this was a justifiable use of the mousewheel? It's just a button you can bind, after all. By your previous argument, it should be acceptable because of that alone. But even the devs clearly believed that just because it was a bind everyone could use doesn't mean it wasn't an exploit. You can't boil things down to such simple logic.

      While you can go on technicalities and say "you are modifying the default setup in order to gain an advantage", the reality is that it's a personal preference based on my ability.
      That's insane. It's not just a personal preference like, say, WASD vs the arrow keys. The mousewheel is simply more effective than any other button when it comes to bunnyhopping because of the nature of its function. It's not just a preference, you use it because it enhances your ability. Just because you use the same method to bind it doesn't mean it's equal for all intents and purposes. Whether or not it's justifiable to use a button that is more effective than any other just because of what it is I won't get into, but you're just trying to mask the fact that it gives you an advantage with roundabout arguments.

      For this entire thread you've just been denying facts that make your argument look bad, and then trying to turn the debate onto something else when we call you on it. If you'd put away your pride and acknowledge that scripts clearly give you an advantage, however small, maybe we could actually make progress with this argument. It's a waste of all of our time to try to convince you of something that you and I both know is fact. Can we stick to something that's actually debatable without covering it up with misleading arguments that do nothing but confuse the issue?

      Edit:
      Oh, and now you're not attacking my logic, you're attacking me by saying "you're the only one that has a problem with ...". Im with stupid said it well when he said something to the effect of "the advantage given with such a modification is so insignificant compared to the skill involved as to remove the advantage given by using the modification.
      Okay, but there is a key difference between the position you are defending and what stupid said. Stupid is presenting a debatable argument by saying that the improvements are not significant enough to be worth worrying about. You are claiming that the improvement doesn't really help you at all and you're using it just because. Your argument thus far has been completely founded on a simple denial of fact, and that's why it's impossible for us to progress from this until you've acknowledged it.

      Comment


      • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

        I have already conceded that scripts give an advantage, my argument has been that scripts give so little an advantage to someone with the skills already that they merely accentuate that player's skill. Scripts don't give people that suck the ability to suddenly not suck. A 3jump script won't allow some pubnub to bhop. It's still very, very easy to miss jumps with 3jump, and similarly with the mousewheel. Once you have practiced it enough (SKILL), then you don't miss much anymore. You can bhop using a regular key, but the amount of skill required is so high that most people can't do it for more than 5-10 jumps before missing a jump. Since the skill level is so high that the vast majority of players (clan players included) use an alternate method that while still requiring skill, requires a lesser degree of perfection to perform. You can be slightly off rolling the wheel or pressing the button and you'll still jump, whereas before the slightest mistake caused you to miss the jump. That's taking out a level of nearly inhuman skill and replacing it with something that most people can learn to play with.

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        • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

          Originally posted by TheAdj`
          Scripts don't give people that suck the ability to suddenly not suck. A 3jump script won't allow some pubnub to bhop.
          Again, a straw man. Nobody said they did. Nobody is claiming that scripts are some secret method of churning out hordes of superplayers who can bunnyhop without thinking twice and pinpoint anything with 100% accuracy. They give an advantage, and the argument is whether or not it is an unfair or harmful one. While it is true that the effectiveness of these improvements is completely up for debate, I don't think it really matters in the long run.

          The real issue that is at the heart of every scripting debate is when improving your game with "clientside modifications," which if you want to take it literally spans from everything to binds to hacks, is justifiable and when it isn't. Obviously nobody is going to say that rebinding jump to the right mouse button is bad, and obviously nobody is going to defend the use of hacks. Somewhere between the two there is a line; where is it? I don't think the magnitude of the improvement is important(good rates probably help more than a pistol script does) as much as the intent and the nature of its function. Early in the thread I said that ideally I'd draw the line at scripts that make game functions easier than they were intended to be whereas clientside fixes of bugs or mistakes is more acceptable. That's the sort of thing we should be trying to establish.

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          • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

            wow... this is way off the crosshair issue...

            Comment


            • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

              Originally posted by _Ender_
              wow... this is way off the crosshair issue...
              Actually it's not. It's totally about the crosshairs, among other things -- I think we're just now coming to the end of the meta-debate (and possibly the meta-meta-debate).

              Thanks for the closer Zek ---

              so in games we should be pragmatists - the "client-side" modification should be judged based on its effects in the game, right? on its extension of something that could already be done? That is - if it makes "convenient" certain things (hopping, pistoling, knowing where to aim) that are, at least practically possible without the "extension" they're "OK" -- but if they push to "outside of practical," say aimbotting - that's bad.

              Had to be a moralist, I suppose...

              Comment


              • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                I think that when you reach the point to where you're operating outside the bounds of the intentions of the developers you are entering the forbidden zone. My beef is people that constantly knock such additions as ways to improve people's game simply by making them. Like saying the corrected shotgun crosshair is a form of aimbot. It doesn't aim for you, nor does a 3jump bhop for you. They are ways to further improve the already skilled player within an acceptable limit. Once you reach the realm of exploits that aren't looked upon by the devs as being helpful, then you can start to have a discussion on what should be allowed vs what shouldn't be allowed. The pistol was locked at 5 shots per second to allow it to be scripted with reason. Other things were modified (the commander interface) to be completely unscriptable. You can't do jack with the commander interface in terms of scripting. You can't even make a script that does the function of the commander hotkeys. This game was made to allow only certain things to be scripted, and saying it wasn't the intention of the devs to allow something is pretty foolish in terms of scripting.

                People will always think scripting is cheap, and that games should be played pure. Whatever, that's their opinion, and no one's going to change it. Let them play with those awful stock crosshairs and menu driven interface in a fps. That's their option. I just enjoy my option to script whatever I want, and use any reasonable modification that I want. Skilled players are only helped more by modifications, and you can only get so far on modifications alone. You reach a point when your skill has to do the job for you, not your scripts and alterations.

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                • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                  All I have to say is:
                  .rar

                  Comment


                  • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                    Originally posted by TheAdj`
                    Like saying the corrected shotgun crosshair is a form of aimbot.
                    Did someone in this thread honestly claim that the modified shotgun crosshair moved on its own accord and aimed FOR YOU? Or is this based on conversations you've had elsewhere?
                    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                    Comment


                    • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                      Originally posted by Pokerface
                      Honestly, the more I think about it, the more this crosshair is starting to fall into the same places that an aimbot hack is: it can serve as a crutch for those who lack the desire to spend the time to make themselves better.
                      ^o^
                      I think here is where adj is talking about
                      L(^o^)z)z)z =3=3=3

                      Man, when I posted my crosshair this was only like 3 pages or so... Quite the disscussion.
                      Last edited by NothingMore.; 06-22-2004, 09:15 AM.
                      - 52

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                      • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                        my position is simply that scripts cause a slight imbalance, but it's nothing compared to the skill differences between people, or even situational differences.

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                        • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                          Crosshairs are one thing, eh whatever, but those lighting effects that nothing has >hax :icon19:

                          Comment


                          • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                            Originally posted by Emanon
                            Crosshairs are one thing, eh whatever, but those lighting effects that nothing has >hax :icon19:
                            Most claners use them =)
                            - 52

                            Comment


                            • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                              Originally posted by Zek
                              For this entire thread you've just been denying facts that make your argument look bad, and then trying to turn the debate onto something else when we call you on it. If you'd put away your pride and acknowledge that scripts clearly give you an advantage, however small, maybe we could actually make progress with this argument. It's a waste of all of our time to try to convince you of something that you and I both know is fact. Can we stick to something that's actually debatable without covering it up with misleading arguments that do nothing but confuse the issue?
                              Very, very, very well stated.

                              Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                              Did someone in this thread honestly claim that the modified shotgun crosshair moved on its own accord and aimed FOR YOU? Or is this based on conversations you've had elsewhere?
                              Well?
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment


                              • Re: you guys with accurate shotgun 'enhancement'

                                Originally posted by Pokerface
                                Honestly, the more I think about it, the more this crosshair is starting to fall into the same places that an aimbot hack is: it can serve as a crutch for those who lack the desire to spend the time to make themselves better.
                                so adj is stretching the truth much too far and making stupid claims.

                                still, to group a modified crosshair in the same category as an aimbot is pretty silly, don't you think? if oh, a certain someone from georgia were to read it too quickly, it would almost seem as if the same qualities of the aimbot apply to the crosshair, i.e. it improves your aim drastically.

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