Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

f4'ING

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • f4'ING

    As per Agga's request, I brought this to the forums...

    From the rules...

    "F4/giveup: Don't F4 at the end of rounds to sit in the readyroom while the match finishes. It's considered disrespectful (your intent is not relevant)."

    Also

    "* if even a single teammate wants to keep fighting, JOIN HIM. Otherwise, if 100% of your team wants the game to end, every single teammate should stop attacking. If the team does this, successfully, and still thinks the other team abusive in their end-game pace, send a forum PM to any admin requesting he review the server-recorded demo of the game in question. Include only a map name and approximate time of day. If you want to mention anything non-obvious about why the other team was out of line, please do. DO NOT include player names. The admins will review the server-recorded demo and act to prevent the future repetition of any inappropriate play we witness for ourselves."

    The situation:

    The entire alien team was all dead, the entire marine team minus the commander was in our hive knifing it down. I brought up that we should F4, and was told "that is against server rules". Yet apparently "giving up" is not under certain situations. Since we were getting killed as we spawned by their entire team, I saw no purpose to continue the fight and brought up that we should F4. Did I make an unreasonable request? No discussion was allowed, I was flatly told, "against the rules". Nobody brought an objection other then the "against server rules". Allowing the game to continue only added another minute or 2 to the game, with exactly the same result. Is this the intent of the rule, to draw out games in a situation where the outcome is obvious to even the newest of players? Games are meant to be fun, and a situation where your team obviously has no opportunity to do anything but drag it out another couple of minutes is far from "fun". (as the situation I mentioned for example) What is the difference between stopping attacking and dying as you spawn, to end the suffering a few minutes earlier?

    I haven't played NS in a long time, since the 1.x version was current, can someone please explain the semantic differences between "giving up and letting them kill the hive" and "giving up via hitting the F4 key" since obviously things have changed since earlier versions? To me personally, the only difference since the end result is the same is the time frame involved in getting there. I am failing to see how it is disrespectful, it is admitting defeat and moving on to the next opportunity for victory. I fail to see why the team cannot choose to "give up". Notice I said team and not individuals. You win or loose as a team, individuals making these decisions for the team is wrong, but please explain how it is disrespectful to F4 as a team if the situation warrant's it?
    Last edited by Morganan; 06-06-2007, 10:21 PM. Reason: Added last sentance to avoid confusion

  • #2
    Re: f4'ING

    The simple answer is that the other team gains a substantial psychological benefit from the mere act of destroying Hives / Infantry Portals. When the losing team F4s, the game ends instantly, denying the other team the opportunity to complete their standard victory objectives.

    I'm sure someone will be along shortly to offer the complicated answer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: f4'ING

      The answer is very simple. F4ing is the NS equivalent of being a baby. We dont act that way here. If a team earns their victory, they should be allowed to see it through to the finish, not have it cheapened by people who are a little peeved that they lost. Think about it in terms of any other game: in a battlefield game, your team has stomped the other guys and has them down to 20 tickets. All of a sudden, the other players all disappear and the map changes. Do you feel a sense of loss because they didnt want to stay the extra couple minutes? Absolutely. Same principle applies here.

      In addition to that, the No-F4ing rule is one of the longest standing rules that TGNS has. It's unsportsmanlike to walk out on a game. Regardless of if its one person or 10 people. I've seen games where the rines had everything and were welding the hive down turn around because one crafty skulk escaped and dropped another hive in secret. 5 minutes later, the marines are down to 2 RTs and no armory.

      The bottom line is that the game isnt over until it's OVER. F4ing doesnt help that along in a good way.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: f4'ING

        Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
        The answer is very simple. F4ing is the NS equivalent of being a baby.
        I would argue that it's more immature to want to force the other team to keep playing a lost game for your enjoyment...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: f4'ING

          In addition to what has been said, its also about drawing the line. If you allow f4-ing at all, it becomes impossible to have a clearcut distinction between f4-ing because the marines are being ridiculous and prolonging, etc, and f4-ing because you're pissed off and don't want to wait or even f4-ing because you feel some sad egotistical need to keep a loss off your amx_balance "record".

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: f4'ING

            Originally posted by a civilian View Post
            I would argue that it's more immature to want to force a losing team to keep playing a lost game for your enjoyment...
            Its about doing what you would want done to you. I think everyone gets some utility out of actually FINISHING and WINNING a game. It is definitely a fair bet to say that most people would rather you didn't f4 against them, therefore they should allow you and everyone else the same opportunity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: f4'ING

              Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
              The answer is very simple. F4ing is the NS equivalent of being a baby. We dont act that way here. If a team earns their victory, they should be allowed to see it through to the finish, not have it cheapened by people who are a little peeved that they lost. Think about it in terms of any other game: in a battlefield game, your team has stomped the other guys and has them down to 20 tickets. All of a sudden, the other players all disappear and the map changes. Do you feel a sense of loss because they didnt want to stay the extra couple minutes? Absolutely. Same principle applies here.

              In addition to that, the No-F4ing rule is one of the longest standing rules that TGNS has. It's unsportsmanlike to walk out on a game. Regardless of if its one person or 10 people. I've seen games where the rines had everything and were welding the hive down turn around because one crafty skulk escaped and dropped another hive in secret. 5 minutes later, the marines are down to 2 RTs and no armory.

              The bottom line is that the game isnt over until it's OVER. F4ing doesnt help that along in a good way.
              I'm fairly sure the battlefield example you gave is quite flawed. A better one would be when all the flags are taken, but there are players still alive off in the middle of nowhere dragging the round out. Battlefield has a remedy for that, it's called ticket bleed which increases to a fast rate once your team no longer holds any flags. Even then you see at times close to half a team leave the server when they can no longer spawn or admin's ending the map. NS also has a remedy for similar situations, is it not the F4 key?

              Ferris, you didn't read about the situation I posted, the team had given up, as much was said over voice. We were just waiting for the hive to be killed. The psychological advantage would be a legitimate reason if it was say a match, but since teams are constantly randomed is it really anything but an e-peen enlargement process? This isn't me giving up but the rest of my team wanting to fight on, this is the entire team giving up and just being spawn-killed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: f4'ING

                Originally posted by Morganan View Post
                this is the entire team giving up and just being spawn-killed.
                Suffice it to say that the situation you described occurs with a frequency too rare to consider during rules design (despite a high frequency of claims that it occurs).

                The "norm" is that a losing team which, in totality, stops attacking entirely, without F4ing, quickly has its strongly desired finality without taking from the winning team its likely earned base-thrashing.

                Having read your comments, I like the rule the way it is.
                Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: f4'ING

                  Wikipedia has a pretty big List of babies. A big part of knowing how to play a game is knowing when you've lost.

                  As for all the psychological benefits you apparently gain by ending a game that's been over for ten minutes, imagine the psychological benefits of playing an entire second game in that ten minutes instead.

                  Ten minutes isn't much of an exaggeration in the marine alamo case. Luckily ns_hera and ns_nothing have conveniently located pits (which apparently do not count as conceding).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: f4'ING

                    The "drawing the line" difference is a good example, and to expand on it, take it as this:
                    How do you tell someone it's ok to F4 if defeat is imminent? Who determines if the team has been beaten back enough to claim an imminent defeat? Does it happen when each individual player decides they have reached a point at which they cant win? I've played thousands upon thousands of rounds of NS and I can tell you that on more occasions than I can count, I knew within the first 2 minutes (and i'm not talking about games with shotgun rushes) that my team was going to lose. Ergo, in my eyes, defeat was imminent. Did that give me the right to F4, seeing as everything from the moment of that realization forward was "prolonging the game" from my perspective? No, of course not. I stuck around and played the rest of the game. The answer is that there is no time at which defeat can be called imminent. I have seen 3 hives go down in 45 seconds. I have seen 0 hive comebacks. I have seen impossible relocates at the last possible second for huge victories. I have seen a single marine shotgun down an alien hive for a last ditch win. These are situations in which most people would F4, but the game went on when so many doubted.

                    In realization of that answer, the solution is to draw the line and not allow it at all. However, in cases which the "winning" team is drawing things out far too long for the "losing" team's liking, or something that is other than reasonable, speak up and say something. If the problem isnt resolved right then and there, come here and PM an admin. These problems can be dealt with retroactively, and I'm sure that the admin staff would be happy to remind anyone who needs reminding how we play here and the appropriate way to conduct themselves while doing so.

                    One of TG's prime directives is respect. People lose sight of that from time to time. Sometimes all it takes is a nudge and a word to bring them back around. Sometimes it takes a baseball bat.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: f4'ING

                      Originally posted by Rules
                      if 100% of your team wants the game to end, every single teammate should stop attacking. If the team does this, successfully, and still thinks the other team abusive in their end-game pace, send a forum PM to any admin requesting he review the server-recorded demo of the game in question.
                      I think this is the key to your problem. Even with two marines killing stationary spawning skulks for stats, five upgraded marines with assorted weapons should take down a hive in less than 15 s, no matter what.

                      To some extent this is up to the comm. If the aliens have clearly all given up, the order should be to shoot the hive and sufficient guns and ammo be provided. The problem is to identify those situations. Many comms will play it safe, not risking to waste a 20 min effort on an all out rush. Also, some players, be that lack of situational awareness or stat padding, refuse to follow those orders.

                      The solution to this could be a fancy plugin where, say, a team unanimously types /surrender and a Mortal Combat-style 'finish them'-message flashes on the winning teams hud. Or we could just all be aware of the issue and try to avoid it when possible. Personally, those 5 min spawncamp losses are perfect for getting up for a break since the afk-kicker will be disabled. But that would be one kick-ass plugin. :)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: f4'ING

                        Originally posted by Cain View Post
                        I think this is the key to your problem. Even with two marines killing stationary spawning skulks for stats, five upgraded marines with assorted weapons should take down a hive in less than 15 s, no matter what.

                        To some extent this is up to the comm. If the aliens have clearly all given up, the order should be to shoot the hive and sufficient guns and ammo be provided. The problem is to identify those situations. Many comms will play it safe, not risking to waste a 20 min effort on an all out rush. Also, some players, be that lack of situational awareness or stat padding, refuse to follow those orders.

                        The solution to this could be a fancy plugin where, say, a team unanimously types /surrender and a Mortal Combat-style 'finish them'-message flashes on the winning teams hud. Or we could just all be aware of the issue and try to avoid it when possible. Personally, those 5 min spawncamp losses are perfect for getting up for a break since the afk-kicker will be disabled. But that would be one kick-ass plugin. :)
                        The solution is that if you're a marine team killing an empty hive, do it quickly. If you're on the alien team and a marine team is unnecessarily prolonging the game, report it as you would a normal rules violation; it's an act of disrespect in my book, at the very least on the comm's part.
                        [volun2]
                        NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                        Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                        <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                        <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                        Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: f4'ING

                          I find the best and funnest (thats right i said funnest) way to end a round if you've all but given up hope but don't feel like not fighting or sitting in a vent you can do the good old tradition of gorging ontop of the hive.

                          Its fun, suggest it when the game is near an end and most of the players will do it, drop yourself a MC or 2 ontop of the hive get adren with all your gorgy buddies and have fun as the marines bring in GLs or just shoot the hive, from my experience with this system people seem to kill the hive faster as there is no resistance and... well everyone likes killing a gorge... its a proven fact.

                          From what i know of it, i don't consider it (at least from what i know) Prolonging the game as your not hiding anywhere, and even if you heal the hive there will be more marines to kill it then nessciary and as i said, everyone wants to kill a gorge.... But it really only is fun / good near the end of a game.

                          As for alien pro-longing games, everyone one loves a good beacon-to-pit, hiding around the map one solitary marine can be annoing but a good old sent of fear solves that. As for just grabbing guns and defending marine start, i can understand that people just want to kill life forms.

                          Anyway, there are plenty of other ways then F4ing that show you have sportsmanship but want the game to end.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: f4'ING

                            I remember a game I was in.
                            The hive was about up, we had no active hives, the marines where sieging it, in full heavy armor and guns. Yet, the aliens won that game with 3 hive after about another 30 minutes or so of long fought battles.

                            If we had been allowed to f4 most of the aliens would have done that costing them there victory.

                            From that, I can draw that, even in the worst of times for your team, it not impossible to comeback and win, it just very hard. Yet when you, it often those games where both sides very much enjoy it at the end, as even the team that lost, had a great time fighting.

                            If you realy want to end it, the fast it to do so on the aliens is to gorge party on the hive, marines go out of there way to kill gorges, and as such, they would try to kill that hive fast to get to the prize.

                            As for marines, well nothing is more interesting then 7 marines with some medspam rushing a skulk with welders. Try it sometimes, your bond to get some funny end of game welder kills, just stay in MS, and throw up some more ips to keep enough marines active, and have fun. :)
                            Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: f4'ING

                              Originally posted by Cain View Post
                              The solution to this could be a fancy plugin where, say, a team unanimously types /surrender and a Mortal Combat-style 'finish them'-message flashes on the winning teams hud. Or we could just all be aware of the issue and try to avoid it when possible. Personally, those 5 min spawncamp losses are perfect for getting up for a break since the afk-kicker will be disabled. But that would be one kick-ass plugin. :)
                              That would be a pretty great plugin lol. Maybe even the "Toasty!" guy.

                              Realistically there shouldn't be anything beyond the point of the aliens having to say "shoot the hive." It's really that simple. Don't shoot the idle skulk that just spanwed. Don't shoot the skulk miles away in the corner leaving you alone. Don't knife the MC. Don't pull the "then don't bite us" routine. There's 12 marines and 1 alien. Shoot the freaking hive. By the time the whole team alien team is dead and the first one respawns, the hive should be dead anyways.

                              Same thing for aliens killing IPs at end game. Why on earth are you biting anything but IPs, Arms Lab and Obs? If you want a real plugin, make one that punches whoever is biting anything but the aforementioned at the end of the game right in the face :)

                              As far as killing the comm / last alien in a silly way, I think it's fine as long as it doesn't take 25 minutes to find the comm hiding in a vent. Some people have limited time.
                              ORGANBiTER | $_COOKIE['monster'] | UBiQ

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X