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  • 9 on 9 conclusions

    If you haven't noticed, the server has been occasionally spiking to 9 on 9 during peak hours, thanks to the admins =)

    It has been disputed between everyone if it throws off the balance to marines or aliens, given the extra player. Since all of it has just been hear-say on the server i wanted to see what people actually think about it since it has been going on for a while.


    I like it, more people the better. From what i've seen it doesn't seem to upset the balance but conclusions and theories i can draw from it,

    8 marines and 1 commander, if marines use the buddy system thats 4 pairs of 2 that can be out on the map covering each other, with the extra man covering the loner it is more likely they'll survive and keep map control.

    as with aliens, an extra alien means another life form, another node, and another person to cover.

    I don't think it throws off the balance much, it still depends on gameplay and how you use the extra man...


    ... What do you think?

  • #2
    Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

    I think the 9v9 works to the marines favor more than aliens tbh. The higher the player count, the easier it typically gets for marines (assuming you have a decent team). Aliens pull res in far too slow as the player numbers go up, although at 9v9 its still manageable.

    FWIW, it seems to be keeping the server filled even with 2 extra people and a couple of people leave at the end of the round.
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    • #3
      Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

      I've found 9v9 manageable, but the marines are EVERYWHERE. It seems to me that that one extra person gives the marines that last bit of oomph to cover the map effectively, countering the physical speed advantage of the aliens.

      In longer games, this is especially true, since longer games of 8v8 and smaller favor the aliens. Due to the aliens' ability to cover more of the map, they usually are able to whittle away at marine positions given enough time since the marines don't have the speed (or numbers) to react everywhere. with that one extra person, it seems as though they do.
      [volun2]
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      Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
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      • #4
        Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

        I know I haven't played recently. But this is my opinion on 8v8 vs 9v9. Beyond almost everything it depends on the map.

        The larger maps such as bast, machina, nothing, and shiva, I believe it to be an even advantage. Because there is that one extra node that the aliens can get with that one extra man. So then instead of 8 people sharing 4 or 3 nodes... its 9 people sharing 5 or 4 nodes.

        Obviously this depends on the marines ability and the aliens ability. But we'll call it a balanced game. So the early game the aliens are able to get one more node and it helps too. The Marines get the extra man for the buddy system to work more effectively. The downside to this is that that one extra man makes one team or the other wait for that shotty rush or that early skulk rush. Because while one good marine could hold off 4 skulks with proper equipment and the warning/location, long enough for his buddies to get back and save the base in time.

        Same with aliens, a warning gives them time to get back and have two gorges on the hive and a couple ambushes by the time the shotty rush of 7 gets to the hive. That one extra man on either team makes the gameplay a bit different as the one more shotgun means that hive will go down faster. But that is one more warm body that the marines have to worry about.

        In small maps however, I could definitely see a marine advantage however especially with the inability for the aliens to take that extra node, or at least hold it. The aliens are then hurt for res in the beginning as that one person means it will be an extra 20 seconds before that fade or that hive, and that early 20 seconds is very precious.

        I apologize if the thoughts seem jumbled, I am multitasking.

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        • #5
          Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

          I need more games under my belt, but I'll say that I've had a few moments where I've said "that's it. 9v9 is broken."... only to realize later, in retrospect, that most of the problems that caused those games to be "broken" would have been just about as prominent with 8v8.

          The aliens are more challenged at 9v9, but I'm not yet convinced that our playerbase lacks what it takes to meet that challenge often enough to keep 9v9 from getting voted off the island.

          Also, I've had some games that were terribly satisfying. I don't know how they would have been so enjoyable at just 8v8. The thrill of this game is the challenge, and having just one more marine in the field certainly makes a huge difference.

          Sooo.. yeah.. I need more games under my belt.
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          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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          • #6
            Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

            Its obviously a question of returns to scale. Theres a better phrase for that, but it just means that, for each additional player, when do the returns become so little that they become detrimental to gameplay?

            K that might have come out as gibberish. What i'm saying though, is this; from 8v8 to 9v9, I would see one more marine and alien in the field, but an extra 25 res to start for the aliens.

            We know that games do lose their tactical balance somewhere around the ~12 player mark. You still get manageable and extremely fun games at those playernumbers (especially with a slight alien stack), but the tactical element is just too chaotic.

            But imo, 8v8 -> 9v9 still holds up. We all know how tight the alien res game is when you're playing on TG, and an extra 25 res means another rt, or another lerk, or another fade, or even some additional well-placed OCs... ALL of which can have a HUGE impact, since the res would almost surely be used well (unlike the numerous res wasters on other pubs).

            So yeah. Thumbs up from me. Plus, Nexus can handle as many players as you can throw at it ;)

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            • #7
              Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

              The extra 25 res for an alien player is negated by the fact that the overall res flow is slower. You can try and drop another rt to make up for it, but that one player doesn't overcome the difficulty of protecting three different nodes on most maps. The extra player also requires a fairly significant increase in the level of cooperation and consensus planning on the part of the aliens in order to maintain the same balance as in 8v8. It's a Red Queen kind of sitatuion, "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."

              At the same time the marines don't suffer any burden since both their decision making and resource model is centralized and doesn't increase in complexity or difficulty with the increased player. They also have much better control over their spawn rate which is actually the biggest advantage they have over aliens in larger games. Beacons don't increase in res for extra players and the twenty res for an ip is fairly inconsequential.

              8v8 has become so familiar to the community as a whole that the alien roles are all pretty much set in place. From what I've seen in 9v9, alien players tend to assume the same playstyle they're familiar with and this really hurts their performance unless someone steps up and takes over as a sort of alien commander. I think we need to see players become less complacent on aliens in order for larger games to work well.

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              • #8
                Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                I think mr.pie really nailed it on the head, the only thing I have to add is that there are starting Hives where the Aliens are already hard pressed to successfully hold 3 nodes (starting + 2 dropped). In those cases with 9 players you are almost forced to go 2 early Lerks (in addition to 2 early Fades) as there isn't really anything else to do with the extra res. Because your res flow is going to be slower you then really need two skulks purely concentrate on taking down the marines nodes if you are going to stay in it.

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                • #9
                  Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                  I'm not concerned about balance, I just don't like playing with such big teams. The whole game just gets less personal and more deathmatchy as you add players. 8v8 was the sweet spot, any more is really pushing it IMHO.
                  Last edited by Zek; 09-01-2007, 11:25 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                    Like Wyz said, I'm not sure yet.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                      Several 9v9 games last night. No major problems. Both teams got punished from time to time, but they earned it each time.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                        Adding one more player to each team isn't a major change, so its not going to outright break anything. Still, even if it isn't "broken", you've got to ask whether its slightly better or slightly worse, and I vote for "slightly worse". Like Zek said, 8v8 was pretty much the sweet spot.

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                        • #13
                          Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                          I agree with Kero's "slightly worse" evaluation. The only upside is that it does allow two extra people to experience the slightly inferior gameplay at a given time. However, I'm not sure how much weight should be given to this factor when we have a second server sitting completely empty. It may be worth trying the idea of redirecting people to the other server instead of sending them to hltv. If people want to join the hltv, they still could by using tgns.tacticalgamer.com:27075 (I think that's the right number), but sending people to seed the second server seems like a better option than upping the player count if our only goal is to get more people playing at a given time. Of course, if we decide that 9v9 is actually better than 8v8, this entire post is completely irrelevant.

                          In terms of it's effect on the marine/alien balance, I would really like to see the raw data if there's any way to easily collect it. How many games do marines win vs. how many aliens win when the server is on 8v8, and how many when the server is set to 9v9. The criteria would need to be the game size at the beginning, since a growing game is a completely different situation than a static 8v8. I'm hesitant to collect this data on my own, since any single player trying to collect this data is going to carry an inherent bias depending on which side that player is better at.

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                          • #14
                            Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                            Originally posted by Agamemnon View Post
                            It may be worth trying the idea of redirecting people to the other server instead of sending them to hltv. If people want to join the hltv, they still could by using tgns.tacticalgamer.com:27075
                            We're trying this idea (redirecting to the "other server" instead of HLTV).

                            The HLTV port on both servers is 27020.

                            The HLTV Sessions (not active these days) used 27075.
                            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 9 on 9 conclusions

                              Thats huge news! I look forward to seeing if both servers fill up with this new devlopment.

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