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  • Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

    So the topic came up on tanith the other night...concerning the ability for marines to spawn camp aliens in a classic game.

    My personal feelings are as such: Should marines possess the firepower and capability to bring down the hive, they should do so. This being said, I have no problem with spawn camping for a period of time as a significant time deterrent against the aliens, while the marines cap the rest of the map, and especially with RFK, spawncamping can be a useful resource generation tool as well. Same goes for aliens...I believe a skulk should be able to camp a few rounds of marines for some res to go fade or something with.

    My view is this: Your hive, or marine start, is your base, and you should be guarding and protecting it almost excessively. Your base is your team's responsibility, and as such a sawncamping situation should never ocur.

    However, sometimes it does, so I wish to discuss the restrictions TG does/should impose on spawncamping in classic. I believe that 1-2 skulks or marines should be allowed to camp a spawn point, until such time as they die, or their team can form a proper base breaking strategy. However, in the the way of limitations...I believe the commander should not be allowed to drop a significant ammount of ammo for spawncamping purposes (1-2 packs per marine), and as far as aliens camping IPs...I think its just plain silly not to be able to recover from that, plus there are typically more benefits to destroying the IP than camping it. However, should a 3rd marine show up to a hive camping situation, I believe the commander should make a prompt, reasonable, and wholehearted attempt to destroy the alien hive, be it siege, dropping an armory and using mines to deterr the aliens while shotguns bring down the hive, etc. Again, in recap, I feel that 1-2 marines should be able to spawncamp for a period of time with limited ammo (this is the responsibility of the commander) while the marines quickly secure the rest of the map (no, not turret farm it, just res and phase gates mostly), and proceed to end it with sufficent technology.

    Thoughts, suggestions, opinions.

    --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N
    --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N

    The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?

  • #2
    Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

    To clarify, our current policy is that you attack something if you're in the spawn area. You don't spawn camp for the sake of spawn camping. One or two spawn kills as you enter the room and get your bearings isn't what I'm talking about, either.

    If the game's victory is dependent on the other team not managing to leave their spawn, you're just about guaranteed a less-than-pleasurable experience by those perpetually in the spawn queue. That puts competition before entertainment, and that's counter to the atmosphere here. I commonly engage first-hand in the compromise, which is to antagonize the spawn area from just outside it.

    That having been said, the fact that I feel so strongly about this means it would only be that much cooler if I were talked out of that current policy, so I'd love to hear well-designed opposition to the idea.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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    • #3
      Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

      I was comming the game he is referring too and I'd have to say, although it was spawn-camping, it was to aid in a practice, as my remaining marine moved freely about the map capturing resource nodes taking down aliens etc. While it certainly wasn't my most proud moment it did get the job accomplished. Could that be considered competition before entertainment?

      Yes, but I will point out that the dynamic of the game just sort of made it fall in our laps, I thought fusion was their hive so I ordered my trio of marines to secure waste. Waste was their hive, we attempted to take down the node but the constant flux of skulks made this to suicidal, thus they struck a balance between damaging the hive and removing enemies. It lasted barley a minute (Although that is a considerable length of time in a game) and soon they were all caught in reload and were killed.

      If I remember right our original rule (way back in 1.0) was that if your in the hive, unless under specific conditions (i.e. just running through, trying to build a phase gate, something to that nature) you could spawn camp, provided you made an attempt to damage the hive. Pretty shaky grounds to base anything exacting on, but also free enough to give a general feel for the server.

      I suppose I really havent said anything have I? I guess my point that I would like to get across is that:

      1) This rarley happens here, to the point where were pretty much allowed to keep such an open ended rule around.
      2) When truly bad situation comes up, (this one for example) its often just one of those luck of the draw things, you didn't plan on it, you weren't expecting it, but there you are, in the hive, empty, with a skulk spawning, what do you do?
      3) Making a hardset rule for this would be extremley difficult, I like the old one we had, where as long as you attempt to damage the hive your in the clear, but at the same time thats open to exploit as you could kill a spawned skulk, shoot the hive with a bullet, reload, kill the skulk again, etc. etc. etc.
      4) At the same time I would like something more descriptive because when and if these things happen it can be frustrating for the receiving side. The reason we dont see this happen to marines is that usually its easier for the skulk to kill the IP, its a weak structure and can be taken care of in the time it takes for 2-3 marines to spawn. Hives have what...3k...4k? hp, you need at least 4 marines to be able to make a significant push on a hive.

      I'm still not getting anything across...damn. I dunno, its to hard to call, I think I'll just say throw this situation up there in the: "Admin's best judgement" category.

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      • #4
        Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

        The very term "camping" has scenario at the heart of it, so it can be difficult to address administratively. But you're correct in how things were and are presently: if you're in the spawn area, you attack independent of the spawn queue. That's not to say that you can't attack spawning aliens, but that shouldn't be driving your ryhthm, it should be interrupting it, or helping to shape it, at the very most.

        My experience has been that there's rarely room for misinterpretation when observing the behavior of someone in a spawn area. It takes about 4 seconds to prepare any weapon.. otherwise, if you're in a spawn area and aren't interrupting your attack to kill a spawning opposition, you should be using one of your weapons to attack something.

        It's very significant that the pronoun "you", when used in these conversations, becomes plural when multiple attackers (as opposed to defending spawners) are in the spawn area. If there are two of you, and one is killing oncoming aliens (spawning or otherwise) in an effort to defend (guard) the other(s) attacking the area structures, the fact that this attack/guard partnership is occuring in a hive area doesn't make it "spawn camping."
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #5
          Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

          Originally posted by Eclipse
          Hives have what...3k...4k? hp, you need at least 4 marines to be able to make a significant push on a hive.
          7k hp, with 7hp/sec regen. technically. ^^
          --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N

          The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?

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          • #6
            Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

            Stopping spawn camping in classic NS is a detriment to tactics.

            One marine holding down a hive to keep the aliens busy for a minute can help the marines gain a significant advantage in the game. If the aliens decide not to come to the aid of their hive: it's their own damn fault for getting camped. 3 marines in the alien hive just shooting skulks is not only detrimental to the alien team, but it also costs the marine team 3 bodies for any other puposes.

            Spawn camping is a perfectly legitimate tactic provided it's not done to prolong the game. If the marines control the map and res, then decide to electric shock the last hive to death while the skulks can do nothing: I'd pass down some harsh judgement.

            EDIT (thought I should add): med/ammo spam in a spawn area (while annoying for the aliens) does in fact cost the marines res and commander attention. It's not like it a "screw the aliens for free" card.

            Camping has gotten a bad name in online gaming and it pisses me off. Camping the MS in combat while not even biting the chair prolongs the game and should be frowned on. Camping to help you win the game should not be. It's the same kind of whining that turns CS into a "bitch-fest." People screaming at camping terrorists. I don't know how many terrorists today would give up every advantage they had to meet the CTs on equal ground. Oh wait, I do: none.

            Back when I played TFC, I would run afoul of the anti-camping AMX plug-ins when a was a demoman or engineer. Good call. Last time I checked, I had to hang around my turret so some guy didn't blow it up. "OMG c4mpur ; h3s B&!!1!"

            Same for NS: you take advantage of the other team's strategy. Hell, aliens even have an advantage! They always know there the marines spawn (provided no relocates).

            To sum it up: camp all you want provided you aren't doing it for the specific purpose of prolonging the game or to "rub their face in it."

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            • #7
              Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

              Here's my pattern Wyz - am I camping or doing something legitimate?

              Enter hive, assume one spawns - shoot spawner with lmg, drop rest of clip into hive. By the time I reload, there's little more than 1 second before the alien spawns again - so lmg the spawner, rest of clip into hive, reload lmg. Rinse, repeat.

              Pistol is backup for aliens that come charging in to stop the spawn.

              Technically I'm not camping 'cause I'm doing something (attacking the hive), but at the same time I'm waiting for the spawners - does this mean they're "setting my rythym?"


              How about this - me and a buddy go into the hive. One kills the spawner, drops the clip into the hive while the other covers. Seconds person kills the spawner, drops clip into the hive - first person covers. Rinse, repeat.

              Or should they both be dropping into the hive? (I'd say coverage is a good and valid thing and that as long as you're dropping the rest of your clip into the hive, or rt for that matter, you're not "camping").

              Camping is when you do nothing *but* wait for the spawners.
              Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                Originally posted by Stupid
                Here's my pattern Wyz - am I camping or doing something legitimate?

                Enter hive, assume one spawns - shoot spawner with lmg, drop rest of clip into hive. By the time I reload, there's little more than 1 second before the alien spawns again - so lmg the spawner, rest of clip into hive, reload lmg. Rinse, repeat.

                Pistol is backup for aliens that come charging in to stop the spawn.

                Technically I'm not camping 'cause I'm doing something (attacking the hive), but at the same time I'm waiting for the spawners - does this mean they're "setting my rythym?"


                How about this - me and a buddy go into the hive. One kills the spawner, drops the clip into the hive while the other covers. Seconds person kills the spawner, drops clip into the hive - first person covers. Rinse, repeat.

                Or should they both be dropping into the hive? (I'd say coverage is a good and valid thing and that as long as you're dropping the rest of your clip into the hive, or rt for that matter, you're not "camping").

                Camping is when you do nothing *but* wait for the spawners.

                Copy that, rinse, and repeat some more...

                This is the exact same tactic I use when "spawn camping" a hive. I don't camp, but I do spawn kill, until my ammo is depleted, hive is killed, or I get ambushed by multiple angry aliens who finally decided it'd be a good idea to return to their hive.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                  What stupid described is a good example of what I described. You're doing something else and killing spawners (which is spawn killing, not spawn camping) is critical to the success of that objective (which is not exclusively to kill spawners).
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                    Can someone just answer me this: what's so bad about sitting in a hive/marine base and killing people as they spawn in order to force the opposing team to divert resources (rather it be in "man-power," resources, commander attention, forced gestates for offensive capabilites) to stop that action?

                    I just don't understand the lack of tolerance for a legitimate tactic in order to force the opposing team to react to a situation. Why should I feel bad about just shooting enemies who have every intention of killing me, when I could never hope to actually kill that hive (1,2 or even 3 LMG marines have no chance against a hive unless the alien team is just stupid. In that instance, they deserve to lose anyways.)?

                    Why should I divert my attention away from objects (skulks/marines) that can cause me harm to shoot at a structure that would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to destroy with the resources I have available and can't hurt me in return?

                    I'm not, I'm going to gun down skulks when they spawn or kill their RT if I'm in the clear. The loss of the hive/base node is a blow to both alien/marine resources and moral (you can't even protect your own base) moreso than taking a hive from 100% to 95%.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                      In the strictest of tactical senses you are correct Fenix - there's nothing inherently wrong with camping.

                      It boils down to 1) a matter of sportsmanship and 2) a matter of gameplay physics vs. "storyline".

                      Sportsmanship - at some point, since the aliens *can't move* for the .5sec it takes you to kill them, marines have to realize that they're being pretty unfair.

                      Storyline - skulks don't really "spawn" in place. That's just a limitation imposed by the game. The hive has to spit them out or something. From a random direction. The "Marines" aren't always prepared to know where they're coming from, etc etc.


                      So - it's going to be a preference of the server, like cc blocking - sure you can do it, but we just choose not to 'cause.... we don't want to.
                      Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                        Originally posted by Stupid
                        Sportsmanship - at some point, since the aliens *can't move* for the .5sec it takes you to kill them, marines have to realize that they're being pretty unfair.
                        The aliens put themselves in a position to get camped. If they can't react to the situation and they lose: it's their fault. I find nothing unfair about taking advantage of a "choke point." Same reason I don't feel it's unfair to use my body to block a running Fade. I find myself in a position to do damage based on another player's inability to defend and I exploit it.

                        Storyline - skulks don't really "spawn" in place. That's just a limitation imposed by the game. The hive has to spit them out or something. From a random direction. The "Marines" aren't always prepared to know where they're coming from, etc etc.
                        So, the aliens have an advantage? Leaving your hive undefended for the marines to rape it is not a gameplay issue.

                        Same reason PG/Shotgun rushes suck, but we don't ban them.

                        So - it's going to be a preference of the server, like cc blocking - sure you can do it, but we just choose not to 'cause.... we don't want to.
                        No, as I believe you pointed out: a CC block costs the marine team almost nothing (2 seconds of comander attention), but can cost the aliens hordes of res (100 for that Onos).

                        That seems more like an exploit than shooting spawning skulks.
                        Last edited by TheFeniX; 09-08-2004, 05:28 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                          Originally posted by TheFeniX
                          I find nothing unfair about taking advantage of a "choke point."
                          Nothing makes people apathetic about something's fairness in gameplay faster than that something threatening their fun in gameplay. Experience has shown me that, majoritively, spawn camping is a very effective deterrant against campees' ability to enjoy the game. Speaking ideally, Fairness should answer to Fun, not the other way around.
                          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                            Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                            Nothing makes people apathetic about something's fairness in gameplay faster than that something threatening their fun in gameplay. Experience has shown me that, majoritively, spawn camping is a very effective deterrant against campees' ability to enjoy the game. Speaking ideally, Fairness should answer to Fun, not the other way around.
                            The same could be said against me attacking a fully upgraded marine as a skulk. My chances of survival are slim and it's not fun to throw myself against a TF which is going to siege my hive only to die over and over. Certain aspects of the game aren't fun if you're on the recieving end of a butt-kicking. What about running out of base only to run into a wall-of-lame™? That ruins my fun because it stops my ability to leave base without getting killed. Do we ban that?

                            Don't ban something because someone may not like it. We didn't ban Fades in 2.01 because NothingMore could go the entire game without a death and ruin a good marine push. I'm sure NothingMore was having a hell of a fun time. That's the way a game goes. And as long as the spawn camping isn't done for the express purpose of either:
                            A. prolonging an already won game
                            B. to "shove their face" in the loss

                            then I see no reason to regulate it. Besides, how many actual times have you seen an effective spawn camp? Of all the games I've played here at TG, I can count them on both hands. Why regulate something that isn't even a problem?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Spawncamping (Classic ns_)

                              Originally posted by TheFeniX
                              Originally posted by Stupid
                              Sportsmanship - at some point, since the aliens *can't move* for the .5sec it takes you to kill them, marines have to realize that they're being pretty unfair.
                              The aliens put themselves in a position to get camped. If they can't react to the situation and they lose: it's their fault. I find nothing unfair about taking advantage of a "choke point."
                              The .5sec I was referring to was the time between when your model (and hitbox) as a skulk appear (and hence vulernable to fire) and when your commands to move actually take effect. This has nothing to do with a choke point. In all the cases I was referring *only* to the spawning skulks. I do agree that if they aliens don't come back to defend the hive it's their own fault.


                              Don't recall a comment like that on cc blocking - but I say lots of stuff all the time.
                              Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

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