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  • What is and is not allowed

    Ok, so here's the deal.

    I'm in a game... first night back after a few months of being addicted to Warcraft3 with a bunch of friends., and what do I find myself with but 2 TG members that have come into existence during my absence (therefore they have no idea who I am... Kark and Kenny).

    Also in the game is vapox, someone else, whom I'm told is a regular, that I do not ever remember playing with. I shall now describe my first encounter with this individual.

    The map is ns_bast, I am alien, vapox is marine. Very start of the game, I run to refinery from our engine hive. Instead of capping the node, I decide to go cover for the skulk behind me so I climb up the wall to the ceiling and hide in a dark corner. Then I hear some marine footsteps, the comm drops an RT, and then my fellow skulk comes around the green tunnel corner and hides behind the RT waiting for the builder to walk by. vapox is the marine, he kills the skulk and is barely visible to me while doing so since his was mostly below the catwalks, but I try to parasite him anyway, fire off 2 parasites but miss both times due to catwalk intervention. He then runs out into the open and hits me square with a full round of pistol using a pistol script (killed instantly) This is still less than a minute into the game, so it was impossible for him to have MT yet, and even if he did, I was stationary the entire time he was in refinery. There is no way he could have picked me out on the wall unless he has something fishy going on.

    The game goes on, and he proceeds to have 13 kills, at least 9 of them pistol, before he dies once, by me, from behind. During that time, he had killed me and others that I witnessed in ways that he should not have been able to predict (hiding in obscure places that would be in no way useful for me to attack, but instead watch and be in hiding, yet he zero'd in on me and killed me instantly every time.

    I complained to admins via admin chat and they basically tell me to go jump off a bridge, there is no way vapox is hacking because he is a regular. While I do admit, there are many people with skill, and that I have gotten rusty in my recent months off, but there was no way he had that kind of aim, so I quit the team and spec'd myself. (I did attempt to use the amx_page command as well, but apparently it hasn’t been installed on the new 3.0 server? Wyz?)

    At this point, someone else also was unhappy with vapox so he spec'd as well, but I do not know who he was. Kenny at this point however started to discuss kicking both me and the other spectator since we were spectating and not playing. I then proceeded, to again explain the situation via admin chat and was again told that I was a nub, that I don't know how to play ns, and that I should shutup and live with it. While spectating vapox, I witnessed multiple kills that were blatant script-kills, and many times where he was very suspect of aim hacks. While I am not going to say that yes he is using aim hacks, I will say that if he's not using aim hacks, he is using something to make all aliens stick out like a sore thumb, as in a possible set of skins that make aliens fluorescent or something.

    Ok, so my point is this. I know there are many people who use different scripts for different reasons, some of them legitimate. And I know that some people are going to hate me for bringing up this ever-present topic, but we need to decide on what does and does not constitute as cheating!

    Here is my stance on it:

    Anytime that you use something third party or programmicly that gives you an advantage over somebody else that does not use the same “something” is hacking.

    Examples:
    This does include pistol scripts, because you are using programming to do your button pushing for you (and yes, I do include in this ANY script/alias that does button pushing for you… other than informational text alerts to your teammates, as those are simply communicational)

    This does include custom skins because it changes the appearance of the surroundings, making them, usually, easier to see, and can be skinned exactly to the portions of the hitbox, taking zero artistic license allowing for an ugly, yet very easy to aim at and kill properly target.

    This does include wall hacks which allow you to see where units are where you would normally not be able to do so.

    This includes anything that would amplify/modify sounds (other than simply turning up the overall volume of the game).

    This includes using a 3rd party program to modify how your game operates (probably would be blocked by CD, but that’s beside the point).



    Wyz and other admins, can I get your thoughts on this issue? I really do not want to see TG turn into a place where “I’m technically not cheating because the game engine allows me to do this” is used as an excuse to hack and ruin the gaming experience of others. NS is all about teamwork and fun, and using hacks is detrimental to both of those aspects of the game.

    Mito

  • #2
    Re: What is and is not allowed

    And people wonder why I rarely play ns.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: What is and is not allowed

      I dont remember people insulting you, as i wasnt paying much attention to coms. But I do know that I see vapox playing ALOT. I myself have been ns'ing for a couple months. And ANY game i play where i die instantly makes me wonder how. In halo 2 mp, i have full shield, another guy has duel smg. I die in less than a second from 20 feet away. But he isnt hacking, cause hes right next to me.

      How can he see people so easily? He probably increased his brightness (monitor and game) to max, and hes also probably mastered soft focus, where you see the entire screen in clarity and dont focus on ths crossair. Its the same thing that happens in sports.

      While it is possible he hacks, soooo many regulars pistol kill me as fast as you say. Perhaps they bind ctrl+w and ctrl+e to attack, so when they have the semi pistol, wewewewe = dead alien. See how fast you can do that.

      While he MAY be hacking, he doesnt HAVE to be.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: What is and is not allowed

        Vapox has been on the server very often, a name I'm glad to see on my team. I think he's a decent player, and I haven't seen him do anything suspicious (you know, like 200-ping,-more-knife-kills-than-anyone-ever,-40-3,-s3_pigeon-setinfo,-cd-working-one-map-shows-as-old-cd-the-next suspcicious). Maybe he was just having a good night. If I can go 20-0 in CS, anything is possible.

        I do think laying down some guidelines for scripts is a good idea though. I've seen plenty of pistol scripts in my day. Sometimes I really don't understand the ns dev team. They'd program in something as stupid as mp_blockscripts (in terms of how simplistic it is- grep ";"), but couldn't think to add a delay between one pistol round and the next?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What is and is not allowed

          Out of respect for both Mito and vapox, I've just spent the last two and a half hours thoroughly reviewing this incident. I have carefully reviewed both the server logs and an HLTV demo of the entire game in question, allowing me to see any player from any angle at any time, in third or first person. I was also able to hear all voicecomm Mito heard during the game.

          I do have better things to do with my time, but I take sincere cheat accusations very seriously. I rarely give one so much attention, but the accuser and target are both players who have my respect, so I decided to dig in on this one and be clear in my response, as that's the least I can do.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          Wyz and other admins, can I get your thoughts on this issue? NS is all about teamwork and fun, and using hacks is detrimental to both of those aspects of the game.
          First of all, watch that "h" word. It's usually more inflammatory than constructive.

          To summarize, I see no evidence of anyone using any hacks in the game you referenced. The following serves as explanation as to how I arrived at that conclusion.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          I was stationary the entire time he was in refinery. There is no way he could have picked me out on the wall unless he has something fishy going on.
          This is, to be blunt, incorrect. In reviewing the HLTV demo, it's clear that vapox was blatantly heard, from your location on the wall, coming up the ramp in refinery (vapox). You moved quite a lot AFTER you were able to hear these footsteps, which means that he was all-too-able to hear your movements as well as you were able to hear his.

          During the exchange (alien hivemind audio is played because it's an HLTV demo -- vapox obviously couldn't hear this during game), your tactical mistakes are apparent to me, while vapox' experience as an NS player seems to shine.

          00:07 - the sound of your claws moving against the wall is easily distinguishable to vapox, giving away your almost exact location and direction of skulk movement, even to a marine only as skilled as myself. Observe how he immediately takes cover (from parasites) and begins to shift his ears around to listen to his surroundings, gathering more information about nearby enemies.

          00:14 - more claws from vapox' left side (yours or Kark's -- I'm not sure, but they certainly would have sent my eyes in the direction of your unit).

          00:21 - more loud claws for him to hear. Immediately after killing Kark, he clearly hears your two missed parasites, instantly refreshing and updating his previously-established comprehension of your location. As your dark brown unit contrasted the bright yellow wall behind you, you were impossible to NOT see at this point. All that's required is solid aim. You were NOT moving AT ALL when he fired on you. So, essentially, he's a good listener who can kill a skulk that's not moving when it's sticking out "like a sore thumb".

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          had killed me and others that I witnessed in ways that he should not have been able to predict (hiding in obscure places that would be in no way useful for me to attack, but instead watch and be in hiding, yet he zero'd in on me and killed me instantly every time.
          Moments later, you're victim to the same mistake. vapox is in refinery, with friends. You spawn in engine hive and proceed immediately, and again loudly, toward refinery. Once you're in Water Treatment (the node between engine and refinery), you hear the marines coming (in the green hall/from refinery) and proceed to take a full two to three seconds to find your resting place, where you think you're safe. But you're wrong. In your path to your resting place, your claws on the wall sound out to the experienced marine around the corner like nails down a chalkboard, and the fact that you moved through the water on your way up the wall (to your resting place) only made matters worse. While you're making all of this noise, you're able to hear the marines' approaching footsteps (your motivation for "hiding"), which means, of course, that they're also able to hear you. Those marines knew your exact location before they ever rounded the corner. vapox killed you. To you, it seems he is "fishy". To me, it seems you are "sloppy." Hell yes he killed you instantly. You're an upgrade-less skulk sitting still in a known location. You're going to die instantly.. every time.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          there was no way he had that kind of aim, so I quit the team and spec'd myself.
          Now, having read the above before I reviewed the demo, I made a careful effort during my thorough review of the HLTV demo, disregarding my established trust in vapox, to objectively consider him as a potential aimhacker with just as much energy BEFORE you began spectating as AFTER you were spectating, as one must be prepared for the "omg he turned off the hacks once I started spectating" argument.

          Let us return to his killing of you in refinery: first Kark died, then you, and then Lucent, the gorge trying to drop the node (the player who later joined you Spec'ing). Man, I tell you what... his LMG was all OVER the place when he killed Lucent. Again, nothing but skill in that exchange. I also saw nothing questionable about his aim after you began Spec'ing. All in all, I saw a marine with good aim and an exceptional tactical prowess on the ground.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          Kenny at this point however started to discuss kicking both me and the other spectator since we were spectating and not playing.
          This, too, is incorrect. One of your teammates (which you and Lucent left two men down in the middle of a game) asked if kicking you was an option, which Kenny denied.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          was again told that I was a nub, that I don't know how to play ns, and that I should shutup and live with it.
          Originally posted by Karkianman101
          I dont remember people insulting you
          In my viewing the demo, I didn't witness anyone in the logs or voicecomm calling you "nub" or to "shutup". I did see repeated testimony that vapox doesn't hack.

          You publicly and sincerely ("there's NO way you could have known where I was") accused another player of cheating, which I don't tolerate, even if the accuser is right beyond a shadow of a doubt. Your use of @chat was more reasonable, but it did result in your making a blatant accusation ("vapox is definately aim hacking") to two players who were merely temp admins.

          In the future, quietly record a demo and send a PM to an admin.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          While spectating vapox, I witnessed multiple kills that were blatant script-kills, and many times where he was very suspect of aim hacks. While I am not going to say that yes he is using aim hacks, I will say that if he's not using aim hacks, he is using something to make all aliens stick out like a sore thumb, as in a possible set of skins that make aliens fluorescent or something.
          Your claim's credibility takes a hit given your flawed interpretation of the facts presented in the video above. To me, a cough is a cough. To my grandmother, a registered nurse, my "cough" is "strep throat" sticking out like a "sore thumb." Your mistakes in Water Treatment (after the first exchange in refinery) are a textbook example of what you surely perceived as a situation where there's "NO way" he could have known your location, when in fact there IS a way he could have known your location, and EASILY. To you, you're "hiding". To me, you're a "sore thumb" sticking out.

          Regardless of what you think, you are not (I am not, Pokerface is not, snappy is not, j is not) permitted to say on the server (or publicly in the forums) that he is cheating. Again, record demos (if you like) and PM an admin (if you like).

          Do not make public cheating accusations for any reason.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          Anytime that you use something third party or programmicly that gives you an advantage over somebody else that does not use the same “something” is hacking.
          I tend to agree regarding third party helpers, but, just as your tolerance below allows the use of "communicational" scripts to "programmatically give an advantage", others find that a script which fires the game-enforced maximum number of pistol rounds in fewer clicks is acceptable. Why shouldn't I have to manually type "DROP MEDPACK" to my commander every time I send the "I need a medpack, stat!" radio message? After all, the script which combines the two is programmatically giving me an advantage, as it enables me to circumvent the typing during gameplay and battles, which gives me a tactical advantage over players without these scripts, which are in no way included in the game when you install it.

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          [Unfair advantages] does include pistol scripts, because you are using programming to do your button pushing for you (and yes, I do include in this ANY script/alias that does button pushing for you… other than informational text alerts to your teammates, as those are simply communicational)
          Grab some popcorn and check out the mp_blockscripts thread for in-depth review of the infamous pistol script and why its behavior isn't going anywhere any time soon (a la mousewheel).

          Originally posted by ImJustMito
          [Unfair advantages] does include custom skins because it changes the appearance of the surroundings, making them, usually, easier to see, and can be skinned exactly to the portions of the hitbox, taking zero artistic license allowing for an ugly, yet very easy to aim at and kill properly target.

          This does include wall hacks which allow you to see where units are where you would normally not be able to do so.

          This includes anything that would amplify/modify sounds (other than simply turning up the overall volume of the game).

          This includes using a 3rd party program to modify how your game operates (probably would be blocked by CD, but that’s beside the point).
          This all seems more agreeable. None of this needs to be part of the game. Having reviewed the game in question multiple times in its entirety, I see nothing suggesting that any of these things was in play during that game. If I had, I'm not sure how I would enforce its prohibition on the server.

          So, Mito, I can appreciate how that post might seem less-than-accomodating to you. It is, however, my honest assessment of the situation. I hope you somehow find it helpful. Please do not overlook the bold line in the middle.
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: What is and is not allowed

            man...nice work wyz, I can see why your an admin. I wish more admins were like you, most can't tell a good player from a hacker if there life depended on it. So many admins just insta ban the moment something "fishy" happens, and thus only nubs play on there server, thus declining the skill of the whole server, breeding a bunch of bad NSplayers who think scripts play the game for you. I could rant on forever =)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What is and is not allowed

              Hey Mito, sorry you had a bad experience on the server. Scared me for a second considering wyz respects you and Vapox is currently a member of my clan. If you still want to play NS, but feel you are lacking in your skill set, you can join wyz and other members when they scrim Clans (almost every night), or if I am on I can certainly give you pointers.

              Dont get pointers from lazyeye though, he blatantly aimbot hacks. All the time. He fears my incredibly slow bunny hopping skills.
              USAR

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What is and is not allowed

                Wyz may not be able to own in CS or NS but when it comes to real life logic and data analysis there is no one better. We are lucky to have him and his skills.
                -Zephyr
                You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

                You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

                Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

                Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

                We are no clan.
                We are not a single game.
                We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
                We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

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