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  • Hive Killing

    Why is base recycling allowed but not biting the Hive to death when the Aliens are losing? Just out of curiousity. Today me and one or two others decided to bite the hive to death when we were going to obviously lose the game horribly (no rt, trapped in base, enough res to go gorge and healspray the air). Wyzcrak disagreed, and said to bring up a forum topic if we felt it should be allowed along with base recycling (which had happened the previous game).

  • #2
    Re: Hive Killing

    MOST instances of base recycling (at least, the ones to which I have been witness lately) aren't OMG-we're-going-to-lose, rather we're-already-toast-cause-the-onos-destroyed-everything-else-and-we're-just-giving-him-less-structures-to-eat. That's a pretty key factor: in those base recycling instances, the game end isn't just inevitable, it's seconds away.

    Hive chewing has two things going against it. One: it presumes that the end of the game is inevitable (which I'll grant that it may be, in some cases). Two, and more importantly: the last hive dying totally robs the opposition of a chance to WIN, something that base-recycling does not (as marines don't die without a base). If you got stomped, take your medicine. If the opposition isn't bringing it fast enough, feel free to remark about your poor condition in the hopes that you'll get beat down quicker. But taking that hive out is almost always poor form in my book.
    [volun2]
    NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
    Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
    <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
    <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

    Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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    • #3
      Re: Hive Killing

      Well I've also seen mass marine suicides. Those dont exactly count giving the opposition the win in your sense of the word. So if base recycling combined with mass suicide is allowed, and hive killing is both of those, why then is it not allowed if game loss is inevitable. I mean, if you are so low on res that you would have to have 1 skulk kill every marine on the other side 2 or 3 times over to get enough res to do anything, you have no RT's, and they are camping out your base, you are gonna lose.

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      • #4
        Re: Hive Killing

        Well, recycling structures is part of the game. It has been around since for ever and there's a little button that does it for you. Friendly Fire and Team Killing aren't a part of the game in the same sense. They're supposed to be avoided and are only a factor when a server has the right cvar set. It could almost be counted as a plugin that allows an exploit for one side, with a parallel for the other team which was already part of the game.

        Another thing is that, if recycling the base wasn't allowed, all buildings are technically part of the marine "base" (an rt on the other side of the map get a 'base under attack' warning). On top of that, the final comm chair cannot be recycled. This disrupts the similarities between hive biting and base recycling. Sure, by recycling all ips and obs you pretty much guarantee your death, but with hive biting you cause it. See what I'm saying?

        I've often heard people say: "If the game isn't ending fast enough, don't fight back, or don't complain" I've frequently been in the situation where I was on the team "taking too damn long" but the opposition kept beaconing/ biting/cloaking/passing out shotguns whilst bitching. I've also been the oppressed that have to suffer the long, drawn out end, but seen my teammates evolve and kill marines. Don't be a hypocrite when it comes to this.

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        • #5
          Re: Hive Killing

          What I'm saying is that mass suicide is the marines causing death upon themselves, and base recycling is making death inevitable, and both are allowed. Hive killing is both those legal things combined.

          I'm just saying, :P

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          • #6
            Re: Hive Killing

            Hive-killing equates more to marines killing (IE, knifing and shooting) their own structures, which isn't permitted.

            Aliens and marines both often do swandives to end the game after things are at the point of no return. The marines have it a bit more obvious due to hera and nothing both having trigger_hurts in the immediate vicinity of spawn, but aliens do it too.
            [volun2]
            NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
            Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
            <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
            <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

            Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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            • #7
              Re: Hive Killing

              I can remember one instance where I helped bite the hive to death. I've also teamkilled other people for refusing to stop biting the hive (another rare occurrence). I understand and appreciate that the losing team should be gracious enough to allow the winning team to complete their objective, but, ideally, it should be achieved in a timely fashion. I don't mind if it takes a while for the winners to win, but I do mind when, and this doesn't really happen all that often, the winners appear to be making no effort to finish off the losers and unnecessarily prolong the game for minutes and minutes and minutes. I think it is sometimes forgotten that the fun the winning team has "screwing off" is often had at the expense of the losing team. I also think this is truer for the aliens than for the marines. Marines can "Alamo" and try to kill as many aliens as possible, but the aliens have no beacon, nor any fun toys on the ground with which they can use to blow up marines.

              So I guess my point is this: it is one thing when the marines are pushing on your last hive and your teammates are putting up enough resistance to delay the inevitable, it is another when you have one hive, no res, no lifeforms, and a map full of phase gates, mines, and defensively positioned marines who are eager to use motion tracking to trap you on one side of the map but seemingly refuse to put you out of your misery... for an extended period of time. The losers need to be gracious enough to lose and the winners need to be gracious to win.

              All that having been said, I haven't personally seen anyone try to TK a hive in months.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Hive Killing

                Originally posted by DON.MAC
                The losers need to be gracious enough to lose and the winners need to be gracious to win.
                That just earned you positite rep. Well said! :)
                Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                • #9
                  Re: Hive Killing

                  Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                  That just earned you positite rep. Well said! :)
                  And because "positite" isn't a word, I'll give you some positive rep. :)
                  [volun2]
                  NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                  Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                  <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                  <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                  Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Hive Killing

                    Originally posted by Pokerface
                    And because "positite" isn't a word, I'll give you some positive rep. :)
                    Bahahaha. Thaaats nice.
                    birdie_in_Texas:ok..i feel stupid here..what is "NS"..? Wyzcrak:Natural Selection. Don't feel at a loss for not knowing the acronym. Feel at a loss for not having experienced the game.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Hive Killing

                      I've just been Served.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hive Killing

                        Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                        That just earned you positite rep. Well said! :)

                        so If one gets enough of this "positie rep" will you sing
                        My Milkshake brings all the boys in the yard ?
                        (\_/)
                        (O.x)
                        (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Hive Killing

                          *Viper on topic*
                          Im thinking a plugin that allows the aliens to vote for instant hive death should be tossed around, because the commander is allowed to make the decision to recycle, i think the team as a whole should also be able to. If the situation is that bad, then it shouldnt be to hard to "Recycle the hive"
                          Now how to decide when to ask to recycle the hive...
                          Oyee

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Hive Killing

                            Hmm, I'd have to say that FF killing the hive is not the best solution in the case of long drawn-out endgames. I'm not sure why, but it just feels, hmm, disrespectful? in the same way that knifing your own CC is. It feels, atleast to me, that you're just trying to be @ssholic. The last few times I've been in this situation on the server, I've staged an F4. One example comes to mind, where the entire marine team was in HA sitting inside our last hive spawn camping with HMG's while the commander was trying to siege, but only 1 person was building for him. That went on for 3 minutes+ and I finally decided that if they weren't going to win gracefully I wasn't going to waste any more time, and we F4'd to play another game. Subjective reasoning, but no moreso than the PCS arguments I've seen float on the CS:S forums. If their team was sitting back, defeding the siege build, and purposely trying to finish their objective (kill the hive) I would've let it play out, but once the majority of the winning team decides to ignore the objective for personal glory I Draw the line for putting up with it.
                            Not the best solution, but *shrugs*

                            I really feel that the CS:S PCS theory works best when figuring to end-games. If the winning team is purposefully trying to accomplish their final objective, and they're not doing it quickly because you're giving them fits, as it were, then let it play out. Accept the fact that you're going to lose, and see how many of them you can take with you. On the flipside, If the winning team has given up their final objective to have fun at your expense, I don't see any reason why you should be forced to sit there and take it, beucase what they're doing is counter to the whole Tactical Gamer Mystique we've got going.

                            And I could sound funny to the CS players of the audience, because I don't play CS, nor do I know what "PCS" actually stands for, so I only catch glimpses of PCS used in the forums, but I take it is accomplishing the objectives the game has set before your team before/above any personal glory or entertainments.


                            And now a joke to lighten the post:
                            American beer is like making love in a canoe.
                            It's f***ing close to water. ~ Monty Python.
                            a.k.a. NinjaPirateAssassin
                            Celibacy is not Hereditary.
                            Everybody should believe in something - I believe I'll have another drink.
                            Happiness is like wetting your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel the warmth.
                            Flying is easy, Just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

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                            • #15
                              Re: Hive Killing

                              I think the reason aliens shouldn't be biting the hive is this is 3.0. Aliens don't need rts or hives or anything. Just teeth and delicious marines to eat.

                              One day on ns_lost, the marines relocated just outside our first hive. Our second hive was half up when the first hive went down. We had one alien left alive, and one rt. When our second hive went up and we started respawning, there was already a pg outside our hive and several marines inside.

                              Guess who won. Yeah, the aliens. Our one lonely gorge, the only living alien while we waited for the second hive, had gone around capping nodes while the hive was going up. As we respawned we fought the marines off out of our hive and went on to victory.

                              I think for aliens much more than for marines, the game is never over until it's over.

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