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  • Jester V2

    Aight. I havnt been on TG in about 2 weeks from work and girlfreind etc. just lack of time. co_jester_V2 is finished and ready. I've played it LAN with a couple guys and played it private server with some old friends from TG and high school, and they all liked it. The fact that it isnt on the server yet is just a matter of being at the right place at the right time to catch Wyz to get it on there.

    There are MANY CHANGES and almost 50 hours of extra work put into tweaks and extra little things here and there.
    (off the top of my head)
    -brighter lights, and some added lights in various places

    -added 2 more secret rooms bringing the total to ?!?...lol.

    -one of these secret rooms is accessable from the combat area and consists of a football field sized labrinth with holographic walls that teleport you out of the maze if you fail and touch them. THE FINISH LINE PRIZE-> The DCs on both teams are vaporized and all players are subjected to a 10 second round of russian roulette. 3 players will live. 1 from marine side of the map, 1 from the alien side of the map, And... the guy that finishes the maze. (and yeah, you can get attacked in the maze.) Btw, this whole thing was so fun to test....

    -finished vent between central room and upper hallway marine side

    -reworked the trigger system for the hive petals so NO MORE than 2 petals can be closed at a time. I agreed with that being a problem before when all 3 petals were down and hive was completely entombed, and fixed it.

    -reworked some of the timing chains and entities in controll of doors, etc.

    -made a pipe ramp to a small vent through the corner of alien side top level to allow gorges to use the bypass vents without too much hassle.

    -made a small alcove at the base of the upper mine tunnel that can kill any player in a "paced" fashion just from being in it. (I will not tell you why it's there, but maybe some people will figure out it's uses.)

    -added a vent belt under the hive room with a chamber large enough to gestate into non onos lifeforms

    -added a small coverfire sniping porthole and platform above the marine side containment door.

    -added a unkillable OBS in the foreward area of marine start.

    -added 3 DCs under the com chair that only a gorge can kill, that repair the chair, and heal marines including welding. (a vanilla marine can now take 5 consecutive bites next to the chair from a skulk before dying.)

    -added a small cave/vent from the rock under the catwalk in the hive room that connects to the vent above the catwalk.

    -made small portholes on the door plugs on either side of the chair so marines can shoot at things attacking the chair even if the door is closed on that side.

    - I did NOT fix the aforementioned glitch in the anti-alien door in the MS, and will not address this other than explain why it happens. The door's action becomes reversed when the door is triggered when a player is blocking the door. Simple fix. dont stand under the door when you are being attacked. I know it may be tempting to be exactly in the center of the room to cover both sides, but if you do this, it's your fault if the door becomes reversed. I could fix this, but think its humorous when it happens cause someone is bein dumb. If you find the door not working properly, then you know some one on your team messed it up for you cause the aliens cant glitch the door by themselves.

    -did some extra scenery work in MS, Hive, and some of the connecting tunnels.

    -assorted other little things not significant enough to warrent mention.

    So, there you have it. I think this will be the final version, but hell... I could be wrong. That said, For those of you that didnt catch on to this before, the previous version was just a beta and for testing. I appreciate the constructive feedback I got, even though I think "evening" out the balance of the map kinda nerfed it a little, but whatever. Little things like only the aliens having DCs was a design element intended to enforce "out of the box" playing and I thought was fair considering the prize for killing them. I'll say it for those who didnt notice- when 2 or more of the DCs were killed, all aliens would lose 2/3s of all thier DC related upgrades. IMO that was a pretty steep alien penalty for one marine getting a welder instead of that last level of unnecessary damage on a shotgun. Theres even more to it than that, but I think it to be trivial to explain. People just didnt get it. But hey. I guess I cant blame people for judging books by thier cover and not trying to see why a feature was implimented.
    I've worked hard to make this map something of a puzzle. The team with the better understanding of that puzzle will win. Just cause it's combat doesnt mean the team with the best rambos wins. Rambo will lose on this map.
    Ive seen both teams do well and have seen the marines kick the aliens butts many times, so if you have a sore butt as a marine here, you're doing something wrong. This map isn't as unbalanced as you might think.

    It may be a few more days till I have the time to get the new version to Wyz, so be patient.

    OP8
    _________
    <OP8-322>
    %#^^^#%

  • #2
    Re: Jester V2

    Cant wait, now we might be getting to play the map more often!

    Chewy: i was paraphrasomg
    [19:01] Chewy: KAMER |
    [19:01] Chewy: i love you | Drake_Anra : I only have a problem when Kamer talks... /// Chewy : That's very much a universal problem, Drake. :D

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Jester V2

      Originally posted by Kamer
      Cant wait, now we might be getting to play the map more often!
      Same here, sounds much more ballanced now that the marines get a buff.

      (To bad i will be down at cape cod a lot this week ( only back for finals wtich are tue, wed, and thur this week have today(mon but not for long) and friday off, this year's 2 weeks of timeshare are here and we have a lot of free time maybe i go vist the cape cod potato chip factory again...)
      Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Jester V2

        I don't mean to be overly critical, so please don't take this the wrong way, I would just like to share my thoughts. Realize that this is just me. I don't speak for other people, and many people do well not caring what I say.

        Originally posted by OP8
        added 3 DCs under the com chair that only a gorge can kill, that repair the chair, and heal marines including welding. (a vanilla marine can now take 5 consecutive bites next to the chair from a skulk before dying.)
        I would complain about this being overpowered (if a skulk is going to get 5 bites they aren't going to be consecutive) but the aliens never really have to attack the chair, and it will be easier to judge once I see how hard it is for a gorge to kill the DCs. But basically in my mind it would make a marine near the chair immune to lower life forms.

        Originally posted by OP8
        I did NOT fix the aforementioned glitch in the anti-alien door in the MS, and will not address this other than explain why it happens. The door's action becomes reversed when the door is triggered when a player is blocking the door. Simple fix. dont stand under the door when you are being attacked. I know it may be tempting to be exactly in the center of the room to cover both sides, but if you do this, it's your fault if the door becomes reversed. I could fix this, but think its humorous when it happens cause someone is bein dumb. If you find the door not working properly, then you know some one on your team messed it up for you cause the aliens cant glitch the door by themselves.
        If you could have fixed it, why not? If you intend this map to be used by anyone who hasn't read this thread (if you don't want it leaving the TG server, and the thought of pubbers boils your blood ignore this) they aren't going to know that will cause a glitch. To give one marine the power to wreck marine start whether they intend it or not I think seems foolish. And I would rather not rely on the marine team constantly having to say "don't stand there" every game, and whenever someone joins. You can call it stupidity, but the door kills them anyway. I do see a valid point in saying that letting them stand there and die to the door instead of the aliens would be wrong since the aliens wouldn't get the kill, but you could just as well make it not kill them but instead allow the aliens to pass through. Since the door closes for aliens the assumption is allowing them to pass is giving them an advantage. But at any rate, that wasn't your argument.

        Originally posted by OP8
        I'll say it for those who didnt notice- when 2 or more of the DCs were killed, all aliens would lose 2/3s of all thier DC related upgrades. IMO that was a pretty steep alien penalty for one marine getting a welder instead of that last level of unnecessary damage on a shotgun. Theres even more to it than that, but I think it to be trivial to explain. People just didnt get it. But hey. I guess I cant blame people for judging books by thier cover and not trying to see why a feature was implimented.
        I've worked hard to make this map something of a puzzle. The team with the better understanding of that puzzle will win. Just cause it's combat doesnt mean the team with the best rambos wins. Rambo will lose on this map.
        Ive seen both teams do well and have seen the marines kick the aliens butts many times, so if you have a sore butt as a marine here, you're doing something wrong. This map isn't as unbalanced as you might think.
        Since I have never seen the marines win on the map, or manage to take out the DCs, I have never seen the dissapearing dc upgrades. Seeing as how it was never mentioned in the thread I'm willing to bet no one else did either. That said, I also havn't seen it played with large teams, which in I think would facilitate destroying the dcs. The last half of the first paragraph looks to me like some passive aggressive comeback with some specific post/s in mind. As a map maker I can tell you, you can put features in that no one will ever find if you don't tell them, and whatever the "more to it than that" part is that "people" don't get doesn't mean no one would get it, but I respect that you might not want to get into a huge discussion on this map making stuff, some of it can be more complicated to explain than it should be. Also I don't consider playing a map to be it's cover. Judging by the cover is what I'm doing now, I'm looking at the text you wrote about the map.

        When you say you have seen the marines kick the aliens butts many times, I don't know if you are referring to the new or the old version. All I can say is I have only seen the old version played with less than 5v5, and the marines have never managed to kill a DC. I'm not going to say things couldn't have been done better, but since the marines are the ones who have to advance and kill the hive or lose to the timer, the aliens can learn quickly all they have to do is defend the hive.

        Yes I still think marines could win in a small game. Stack the teams a little bit and whatever side you want can win :p.

        Also about the learning the complexity of the map. I don't think that is a bad thing inherently but if it's the type of thing people would have to read to know instead of just seeing it in the map, I think you are reaching a more narrow audience, and can't really blame people for not catching on.

        But seriously I don't mean to be so hard on you. I know map making takes alot of work. I think the map is pretty interesting, and I am looking forward to seeing the new version. I just can't really comment on the good changes until I have seen the map. I can't honestly say I know what it will be like having marine DCs in the marine spawn, and there are plenty of other things I will just have to see for myself.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Jester V2

          Hey. Irish, I appreciate your critisism and mode of expressing it, and I suppose I should explain the things that you commented on.
          First, as for seeing the marines win, I have seen this happen on both the old version and the new. Granted, on the old version this was more rare but entirely possible without stacking the teams. The marines can actually win quite easily on both versions if they work together, but obviously from what I've seen, people just cant seem to use that mentality effectively because it's just another combat map. And the impression I've gotten from everyone is just that... who cares about being strategic or playing seriously 'cause it's "just another combat map".
          Considering the amount of effort I've put into making it Not just another combat map, hearing people dismiss it as such is very irritating. The marines would win this map much more often if they acted like it was an NS game.
          Basic necessities are-1. Stick with your team. This map was built to make a lone marine skulk fodder.
          The map was also built to make close proximity of squads important.
          2. Communicate with your team.- If you're the group leader and are going to move up, you need to tell the guy who's covering your ass whats going on. if you see something on MT, then for christs sake, warn the guy thats about to be eaten by it. If you need cover while welding open the DC's, then you need to tell your teamates whats going on, or expect to fail.
          3. Manage your resources.- In combat, resources equate to upgrade points.
          This map was made to make the spending and communication of spending these resources more important. I'll use a 4v4 as an example. If all 4 marines spend thier res rambo style and go straight for shotties and resuply first, the marines will likely lose. Thats like playing an NS game and upgrading the armory, passing out HMGs and never building an OBS. sometimes it works, but most of the time it won't. Jester makes getting diversified support technologies more important.
          that 4v4 shottie rush that gets it's ass kicked will have much better luck if the team upgrades with 1 shottie, 1 welder+grenade, 1 MT+resuply, 1 scanner sweep+mine. ---A medium skilled team with these upgrades and good communication can win a jester match in under 6 minutes without needing to be higher than level 3.... both versions of the map. - Ive seen it.
          And lastly, number 4.- Its a good idea to have a strategy. like syaing "ok first we are going to weld into the DCS. everybody take the lower path up the ladder by the hive." or even "Ok guys, screw the DCS, everybody take the top path up to the catwalk and Joesmith and I will ruthelessly unload on the hive and upgrade resuply and weapons till it dies, while bobroberts and Nsplayer2 stay tight on either side of us and kill anything that tries to get near us."

          Subject two- The DCs are irrelivent. The alien DCs were put in for many reasons including rounding off the damage from the occasional lone marine uberspawn camper. If the marines don't work together and just randomly trickle into the hive, the DCs will make it harder. If the marines stay together and focus fire on the hive, The DCs don't mean a thing except adding an extra clip worth of health. Because of this, it means that it's better for the aliens to push out and intercept the marines earlier in thier path to the hive. The longer the aliens can keep stragglers occupied near MS, the better. Ultimately though, If the marines coordinate and push the hive hard in one pass, they can take it down without the DCs meaning a thing. They don't make the hive invincable, they just up the need for focused fire and coordination.
          For those reasons and more, I will not remove them. The Marine DCs on the other hand, were put in to apease every body that said that the alien DCs were Sooooo biased. So there, now both teams have em. They also fulfill the argument that the marines were having such a problem getting owned in spawn, as well popular demand for a self healing Com chair like the hive.
          I've noticed that in test games for V2, that at first marine players will feel a strong desire to keep going back to heal by the chair, but this will actually hurt the team- because of the reasons that I mentioned for why the aliens have the DCs in the hive in the first place.

          The marine wins that I was specifically refering to actually happened on TG, on Version 1. The reason why those games were won is that the marines worked together and played like they had a common goal. The first game I saw this happen they didnt even kill the DCs- in fact, 2 of the marine players said late game that they didnt even know the DCs were back there. I was an alien in that game and had a tough time because the rines were a really tight group. I don't recall what players were in that game, but if you were, feel free to speak up.

          Last major issue- The MS anti alien door.... Forgive the method I chose to speak about it. Believe me, If I could make it into something where I could gurantee it's operation, I would. Unfortunately, it just isnt that simple. With the map at it's current level of completion, EVERY CHANGE I TRY TO MAKE requires a minimum 6.5 hour compile process JUST to see the results even on my own machine. Fixing the door requires the implimenting of a very complex entity string that I would have to experiment with. So figure it takes 5-6 attempts, tweaks, etc. to get the door to be absolutly perfect- that's 30-40 HOURS that I cant use my computer for anything else but waiting for it to finish compiling just to "Maybe" have it work.
          When I built the door in the first place, I went to great lengths to have it's operation as flawless as possible. If it had been obviously screwed up, It wouldnt be there at all. The fact of the matter is this - under very rare circumstances, the door can get messed up. I have neither the time nor the patience to fix that considering the rarity of the occurance, and the fact that the door was only added to be a conviniance, and an after thought, instead of having to wait (no more than 15 seconds) for the doors at the CC to get to the other side. IT is NOT a simple door with simple triggers, and is not a critical feature. At this point, I see it as being more worthwhile to observe the chaos that occures when by odd chance the door gets messed up. Although my attitude of expressing that earlier could have been better, thats the story on the door. At this point I guess I'd be willing to try to fix it if its that big a deal, but it will push back the release of the map a substantial (and with my schedule, indefinate) amount, So so be it I guess.

          About learning the complexity of the map- It really isnt necessary if all someone wants is a deathmatch game. A good understanding of any map is only required when someone really wants to win more than the other guy. Yes, it's true that this map has many little tricks and strategies and hidden places, but none of it is that hard to find if it's being looked for. I make things difficult, but not impossible to figure out. I just don't like to spoonfeed.

          I feel right now like I could go on forever about this, but I wont.
          I suppose I'll quit here and just say that this map was made with the intent to make a blend between NS and CO. Upgrade points are your res. Treat it like an NS game as far as communication, and spend your res in a way that helps the team, and you've got a good chance of winning.
          If theres anything else people want me to explain or rant about, feel free to ask.
          _________
          <OP8-322>
          %#^^^#%

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Jester V2

            Originally posted by OP8
            Last major issue- The MS anti alien door.... Forgive the method I chose to speak about it. Believe me, If I could make it into something where I could gurantee it's operation, I would. Unfortunately, it just isnt that simple. With the map at it's current level of completion, EVERY CHANGE I TRY TO MAKE requires a minimum 6.5 hour compile process JUST to see the results even on my own machine. Fixing the door requires the implimenting of a very complex entity string that I would have to experiment with. So figure it takes 5-6 attempts, tweaks, etc. to get the door to be absolutly perfect- that's 30-40 HOURS that I cant use my computer for anything else but waiting for it to finish compiling just to "Maybe" have it work.
            I really hear you on that one. One of the things I hated about map making was once the map got so big, if I tried to implement anything that was prone to problems that required one or more attempts to fix it, the amount of time it would take just to compile and test became massive and and discouraging. One thing I could recommend that I eventually did for some of the more complicated changes was copy that section of the map, create a new map out of it, seal it up, get it set up to stand alone, and then compile and test changes on that small version. Depending on how reliant it is on other entities this may or may not be particualrly difficult to do. I eventually got ot the point where I just had map I used specifically for creating and testing complicated entity sequences. When I added a new one I would remove an old one that I didn't need anymore, but I usually had a few things on at once to mess around with. It kept me sane to have little things to play with inbetween testing just one thing, and it also helped make sure I could uncover glitches on my own for what I left on there.

            Anyway, I want to respond to more than that part, I just didn't want to quote the whole post.

            I played your map recently (old version) and one of the things I hadn't realized was the ability of marines to actually take down the hive without killing the dcs. The more thought about this, the more it made sense to me why the games I played went how they did.

            In small games, the marines will be doing less damage and probably taking more time than in larger games. If it's 2v2 or 3v3, something like this, it's much harder for the marines to have an impact on the alien hive given the DC regen rate. But easily with 5v5 or more the team would be able to kill it fast enough that the regen rate wouldn't be as noticable.

            Basically the more people you have, the less time it takes to kill the hive. The less time it takes to kill the less health it regenerates total.

            Since you are aiming for something thats a cross between Classic and Combat, it makes sense that it doesn't function as well with as small of teams as combat potentially can, just as Classic requires more people. I think it would be nice to play this map with more people, but since 10 people makes the map change to NS maps it's hard to get a good number of people on it.

            So in the one game I have played where the marines had 4 players for most of the game (aliens only had 3 most of the game if anyone cares) we succesfully killed the hive without welding in and destroying the DCs. (JP/Shotgunned the hive down). The following game was 3v3, but the skill of the players was on the side of the aliens, and on any other map we probably would have lost just the same, so I can't really compare.

            Anyway, I would recommend pimping out the map a bit, trying to convince people to vote to it when there are more people on the map. I know I will try. When the map is suggested there are usually one or two complaints of "I don't like that map" but I think it would be easy to get the wrong impression if it was only played with a small number of people. (Aliens also get the natural bonus in small games of getting the life forms, which can typically surivive against two marines by killing one and fleeing, or even better)

            Putting out the new version will probably give people some chances to play it iwth more people on. People will be curious and want to see it. If you can get it going with good numbers of people, I think it could turn out well. You might want to talk to Wyz, maybe he could add a minimum number of players for that to be the next map, but put it in twice in the rotation or something...

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Jester V2

              I wanna see this map darnit... Lets not all just forget about it!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Jester V2

                I love jester. The major problem that we have with it on the server is that the marines never work with each other in combat. The server is great in NS maps. To be a truely a server built on teamwork, it must apply to all the maps we play. Co maps should be played with teamwork. We should beable to put any map on, and have us work together.

                Co_Jester is the first Co map that requres teamwork for the marines to win. The aliens don't need any yet, but the marines do. Me and kamer love this map.

                The reason that most people hate this map is that it requres them to work toghter in co. A normal co map can be won with 1 marine with ease. This co map requres marines to work as one. I would love to play this map in a captains game. All speak off, None of this serect room stuff. The marines have to plan, and work together. This co map was made for this server, now all we need is to show people that teamwork is as much a part of this map as it is a part of this server and it should be much more fun.
                Current game name : Lost, Phantom Thief

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Jester V2

                  I was actually hoping no one would revive this topic quite yet, because the new version is STILL NOT on the server. After I had posted about it being ready, I changed my mind and wanted to make a few more tweaks to minor things like spot light angles and other trivial stuff before releasing it. The day after I started doing these little tweaks, some rather serious buisness has kept me from being able to work on it. I promiss it will be done very soon but here is the situation I'm in at the moment: My best friend and I have just finished sending her ex-husband off to prison for 9 years for mollesting her 2 year old daughter and are trying to get her moved into her old house. When we got to the house, we found that her inlaws had violated the protection order on the house and had thrown away most of her and her childrens belongings and had gutted several of the rooms including the bathroom. ( we suspect to make the house unlivable...) So the last few days, I have been under great haste to build her a working bathroom and installing a toilet and sink and whatnot so she can bring her kids home. It has been an exhausting and disorientating last few days. I've spend alot of time this weekend with her at the police station filling out police reports and assorted other legal issues and feel a great need to help her get through this awfull situation. I know the completion of a map for a game can wait a few more days... I promiss though, I've got like 1-3 hours of work to do on it at best, (excluding the final compile time), so As soon as I have the time I'll get it done.
                  So, Thats where I am at the moment, and why I havnt been around lately.
                  OP8
                  _________
                  <OP8-322>
                  %#^^^#%

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Jester V2

                    Well take your time man, some things are vastly more important than making maps.

                    Good luck, and I hope things turn out well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Jester V2

                      Originally posted by Kamer
                      Cant wait, now we might be getting to play the map more often!
                      doubt it

                      :P


                      "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                      "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Jester V2

                        Originally posted by Irish Pirate
                        Well take your time man, some things are vastly more important than making maps.

                        Good luck, and I hope things turn out well.
                        Seconded. Working plumbing fixtures have to take precedence over NS maps, but I'll be looking forward to playing it once your done. Good luck.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Jester V2

                          Aesop, shush :(

                          Chewy: i was paraphrasomg
                          [19:01] Chewy: KAMER |
                          [19:01] Chewy: i love you | Drake_Anra : I only have a problem when Kamer talks... /// Chewy : That's very much a universal problem, Drake. :D

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