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  • TacticalWiki article research: Counters

    After reading the two tactical wiki articles an idea for a increduble useful article came to me. So far the articles are explaining how to play certain ways. This can be useful for those that play in that style but not for everyone. What I'd like to try to put together would be a much more universally useful article. All it would be would be a list of tactics and strategies used, and what you can use to counter them. And I'm hoping everyone would be willing to add their views and ideas to it. So here's a start with some common tactics and strategies useful on all the maps, and my thoughts on what to counter them with. I'm hoping other people will pitch in on what I don't cover, and to add thier ideas if they differ from mine on how to counter them:

    Strategies- Marine

    Hive rush) Not seen often on TG, this is when most of the marine team rushes to the first hive, while 1-2 build RTs and structures near MS. It can either win the game outright, or it can severely stunt early Kharaa growth. Shotguns may or may not be used.

    Counter= If you spot this early, get an extra person dropping RTs (on most maps that means try to get 4 more RTs up early, instead of 2-3), put one person in charge of attacking MS (this is important, MS is left very exposed in a hive rush, not only does attacking it stop or slow reinforcements to the rush, it can also severely stunt marine growth) and have everyone else move as one group towards the hive. If you have MCs, gather around one and movement in as one, otherwise get in a close group and attack as one. If you try to move in one at a time, or spread out there is a good chance the marines will kill you off as you arrive. By attacking in a close group, they will most likely only kill one or two of you and the rest will break through to the hive. You must secure the hive, otherwise those respawning will be camped, and the game is most likely over. Once you have spawn secured, wait for those who died to respawn, then again as a group attack the survivers. By this point, you should have the advantage in RTs, and the MS attacker should slow them from gaining tempo again quickly.


    RT rush) This is where the marines concentrate on attacking the early RT dropping gorges.

    Counter= Group your gorges together and give them 3-4 skulks as body guards. Having them together will speed up how long it takes to drop an RT, will allow them to heal each other, and makes them one Hard target instead of two Soft targets.


    Early MT) This is when marines rush motion tracking early in the game.

    Counter= if your lucky, get SCs, strategic placement of them reeks havoc on MT use. Otherwise, group up, target their RTs and try to get SC (meaning a second hive soon). Remember, with MT skulks can no longer surprise or outmanuvuer marines, so large attacks are the only highly effective tactic.


    Electrification) When the marine team starts electrifying thier RTs from the start of the game.

    Counter= remember how much electrification hurts their economy. Push yours, and pressure thier soft spots (MS and any unelectrified RTs usually, but best judgment should be used). Electrification only works if they can make up for it by getting large numbers of RTs, or by getting rid of yours.


    Heavy Train) Used later in the game, this is when well equiped marines in heavy armor group together. Usually this will be used in a hive assualt, but occasionally it is used in a RT hunt.

    Counter= Remember, they sacrificed thier mobility for that durability. Right off the bat when you first encounter it, send a skulk or two to MS. This will tell you how well they react. If they already have someone defending when the skulks arrive or they quickly phase back, then use style A counter. If you get a lot of damage in before they counter, use style B counter.
    Style A, hit them everywhere at once. Try to spread them out on the defensive. Conserve your higher lifeforms, while waiting for more to evolve. As soon as you get a few higher lifeforms, attack with them at one point, engage until they get the heavy train there, then go back to the spread out attack strategy. Once they are spread out again, hit them at one spot again. Eventually, you'll have forced them into one or two locations left, from there it should be easy to contain and destroy them.
    Style B, force them to focus on one spot. Have most of your team group together and attack one point, while a player or two attacks somewhere else. If they don't use the heavy train to defend against your strong attack, just wipe out whatever it is you attacked and move on to the next location. If they do use the heavy train to defend, use the attack to pin the heavy train in place, while the other players take out locations elsewhere. Eventually, you'll either have worn down the heavy train, or you'll control most of the map.

    Both styles, do not try to defend against the train directly. A heavy train comprised of experienced players can only directly be stopped by large numbers of onos. If you have large numbers of onos, you should probably just attack MS anyways and end the game. If they are only average players, it is possible to directly defend against them, but it won't be easy, and it will be risky. If they are inexperienced players you won't need any particular strategy, and it's unlikely they'd get a heavy train in the first place. So you can see why it's not generally a good idea to just meet the heavy train head on.


    Strategies- Kharaa

    MS Rush) This is when all or most of the Kharaa team rush Marine Start right at the beginning of the game.

    Counter= if you know it's coming, then a few well placed marines defending should stop it. Mines can also prevent an easy rush. Otherwise, it's a good idea to make sure your marines don't go too far away from MS early in the game. As soon as you realize that you've been rushed, have most of them return to kill off the skulks. You'll have been hurt, but if you killed most of the skulks, the other team will also have taken a setback. If not many of your marines have been killed, a counterattack is often a good idea.


    SC first) This is when the Kharaa get Sensory Chambers first. You'll have to deal with focus, cloaking, and sent of fear.

    Counter= Push thier nodes, they will probably try to set up a SC net, and that will hurt thier Res. Against focus, just get armor upgrades quickly. Against sent of fear, all you can do is level the playing field with MT and obs. To counter cloaking, both personal and SCs, drop observatories, several, ideally placed all over the map. An observatory is an uncounterable anti-cloak device, not only does it make all enemies and structures near it appear on the radar, it will actually decloak them. And in the most recent versions obs have been relatively cheap.


    DC first) This is when the Kharaa get Defense Chambers first. You'll have to deal with carapace, regeneration, and redemption.

    Counter= Go after the hive locations. DCs offer no help in getting a 2nd hive, meaning they'll have to use brute force to get the 2nd hive up. MT will give you a major advantage, so try to get that quickly. Against carapace, there's no good counter other than be accurate and try to get heavy weapons. Against regeneration, don't let any small lifeforms run away, they may come back after you sooner than you're used to. Against redemption, nothing can be done about this, but it's unreliable so few use it.


    MC first) This is when the Kharaa get Movement Chambers first. You'll have to deal with Celerity, adrenaline, silence, and MC transport.

    Counter= this doesn't generate any weaknesses for the kharaa, so you just have to play smart. MT is a big help. Against celerity and adrenaline there is no counter. Silence is almost completely countered by MT.



    I've been typing for awhile, I'll come back and add more later tonight. In the meantime, here's some more things that I'd like to know how you all counter:

    Shotgun rushes
    Early Fades
    PG Rushes
    Onos Shield Charges
    Fades in general
    Chariot Traps
    Skulk ambushes
    Shotguns (as a skulk)
    Lerks

    I know there's a lot more out there, so if you have anything to say I'd appreciate input. Most of you have a great deal more experience then I do, so your input would be useful.
    "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

  • #2
    Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

    I was hoping there would be a bit more of a response than this. If nobody is willing to pitch in then there's no point in this.
    "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

      Ok, I was confused at first... I read counters and thought it had to do something with time.

      Well, give it time, you posted it during turkey week :)
      USAR

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

        I'm going to give it a few more days to see if (hopefully) a response developes, otherwise I'm going to put this in my "good ideas that might one day be done" file.
        "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

          Why dont you take the initiative, put it in the wiki, and let it develope on its own?
          USAR

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          • #6
            Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

            Another idea is to do those topic onne article at a time and in depth. There will be less reading for the end user that is looking for something in particular and the information on the topic will be much more thorough.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

              I don't want to start the article unless it's at least halfway comprehensive, plus I don't want to do it all by myself. Before you think I'm just being lazy, let me explain.

              The individual topics (such as what has been posted so far) are good in that they cover each concept in great detail, but becuase of that they all are biased. A lot of the gameplay details of NS are a matter of personal gameplay style, and when someone describes one of those details in depth they naturally describe it to match that style. Not intentionally (most of the time that I've seen) but simply becuase that is what makes sense to them. So, while I enjoyed reading those articles, alot of what is in them wouldn't really work for me (for those of you who remember, I have a slightly odd commanding style). That's why I named the article idea under "Counters", the idea isn't to promote one style of gameplay, the idea is to show how to play against certain styles and aspects of gameplay. Ideally, eventually all styles would be covered, forcing people to get more creative. And that is what I love about the idea behind the article, that if the existing styles can be countered it would force people to play in New styles.

              Sorry, getting a little sidetracked. As to why I just don't do it all myself. Firstly, know matter how I try I could never completely keep from introducing my gameplay style into it. The best thing I can think of to avoid that is to make sure other people with different styles contribute to it. Second, I in all honesty don't have quite the depth of experience some of you have in NS, and without a computer to play it on for the moment what I do have is losing it's relevance. Finally, as I said, I don't want to do this with only a few small topics covered. It would be somewhat pointless becuase only a comprehensive counters list would give incentive for people to try something new. And I know myself well enough to know I'd burn out of enthusiasm if I tried it alone, eventually without reinforcement from interaction with others I'd stop working on it and it would stagnate.

              Those are the reasons why I'm only willing to put myself into this project if more of the TG community is involved. Hopefully, some of you will see the merit in the idea and pitch in. I'm not looking to get this done overnight (in truth, I expect that if this gets off the ground it could be around for years) but I was hoping that there would be at least some interest early on. So think about it, just look at what hasn't been given a counter for yet, and if you know of something that works as a counter then just type it up and post it. I know most of you know a large number of counters, I've seen you all use them while playing. I'm not asking for a long analysis of what to do (though I wouldn't turn those down) something as simple as "What to do if a skulk likes to ambush you from above: Start moving with a partner, turn around as you first enter rooms and look up" would work. So, please, give it some thought at least.



              And to avoid having anyone think that I'm against further articles like those already posted: I'm all for them. Just becuase they have bias doesn't change thier effectiveness. A great deal of improving on your own style is learning about others. The counters article is designed for a different purpose then those articles: it's designed to be used as a reference, whereas the normal articles are more geared towards teaching. I just don't want anyone to think I think anything negative of the articles already posted, I actually enjoyed them.
              "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                Turkey week was bad timing if you want a lot of discussion.
                Originally posted by Card AKA Karrd
                SC first) This is when the Kharaa get Sensory Chambers first. You'll have to deal with focus, cloaking, and sent of fear.

                Counter= Push thier nodes, they will probably try to set up a SC net, and that will hurt thier Res. Against focus, just get armor upgrades quickly. Against sent of fear, all you can do is level the playing field with MT and obs. To counter cloaking, both personal and SCs, drop observatories, several, ideally placed all over the map. An observatory is an uncounterable anti-cloak device, not only does it make all enemies and structures near it appear on the radar, it will actually decloak them. And in the most recent versions obs have been relatively cheap.
                I like electrification to counter early sensory. It's imperfect and situational (a la "NS"), but I often prefer it.

                More later. Love the idea.
                Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                • #9
                  Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                  Glad to know you're willing to help out Wyz.
                  "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                    I was hoping that more people would show interest... But hey I've got good news. I just... happen to be one stubborn person who won't let a good idea die.

                    So I'm going to keep an eye on this topic and maybe occasionally add to it for the time being. I'm hesitant to put more up, becuase as I stated I'm not able to play NS at this time so anything I post will be from my memory and from theoretical games in my mind. I'm putting what there is so far (depressingly little.. I'm disappointed by that. I know you all have more to add) into a text file. I'll add anything that gets put here into it as it's posted.

                    Eventually, one of two things will happen. If more people contribute, and a sizable (not even a majority) portion of the needed counters are contributed I'll turn the text file into a wiki entry. If not enough people contribute, eventually I'll have a computer to run NS on again, and I'll do the research and the writing myself. It won't be as good as if everyone contributed, but it should be a start.


                    In case you can't tell, I'm in an active mood at the moment. I'm not going to let this die... I don't care if I have to write the whole thing myself. I'll do it.
                    "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                      Becuase this is a perfect example of why I want to get this project off the ground, I'm going to post this:

                      Originally posted by Psi_RedEye22
                      You guys probably don't want to hear this, and if it's a horrible idea or against what Wyz envisions the server to be, just don't listen to me, I'm pretty apt to most viewpoints.

                      TGNS, in the past couple years, has been a robotic, politically correct game where one team is expected to do something and the other team counter it, where sarcasm, off-color commentary, and silly ideas have become non-existant.
                      All the new relocation spots in the world cannot change the fact that the basic strategies on the server have been exactly the same since 3.0 came out. What ever happened to a team of rushed jetpackers railing down hives with level 0 weapons? Stupid ideas like cloaked fades covering key corners on maps? You don't see differentials on this server because people get angry with you for attempting something not "by the books"....which is the worst possible way to play a game, I have to admit. It could very well be that I'm saying this to the wrong community, as I do know TG is founded on maturity and Standard Operating Procedures...but seriously, you yourselves know TGNS has the youngest playerbase, and that tends to not go over well with people that want to do what TGNS seems to be lacking...having fun.
                      I'm not saying you can't find a good game of NS on TG, I've played some amazing games, but it seems that on the robotic style games, I only really have any fun at all when I have to hit Lazyeye's fade with a shotgun, or Zek's lerk, or commchair dance with Wyz's skulk. These rambo-type scenarios are absolutely against the team-based aspects of NS, but spice the game so much in terms of action, that it was absolutely worth the time to wait for a slot on the full server.
                      In a team without this fast-paced playstyle, where teamwork is prized over fun (I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive), I find myself tearing through throngs of lone gorges and single-placed backup skulks while having their team alerted in some bastardized Ghost Recon simulation with respawns.
                      My main point is that the main strategies need to be spiced up. Whip out 2 newbie-type marines with shotties and give veteran players LMGs right off the bat to go skulk hunting, while getting a secondary base between the main hive and the expansion hive. Switch up upgrade chambers, maybe some annoying ass skulk redemption or cloaking, with heavy cover on the expansion hive. Rush onos, rush heavies, less nodework. I really like public servers because I see as many strategies as I do commanders, even if most of them are stupid, I'll gladly be on a team that turret farms marine start as opposed to a team I know will cap 2 nodes, then ungorge, then have a fade, etc.

                      Spice it up, TG. You have a gigantic playerbase as far as NS 3.0 goes. Make it fun, change some stuff, have a merry ol' time.
                      Best guess is it will be about a few months before I get my computer, and along with the holidays (and working the graveyard shift becuase of them) I don't have time to work on this right now. So, I understand if you don't post anything right now but keep this idea in mind. If you're tired of playing robotic NS, against variations of the same strategy, do something about it....
                      "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                        I think naming common strategies and counters is a good idea. I would love to help you with it, but I don't consider myself good at strategy. Heres my two cents.

                        The alien RT rush counter strategy sounds like a bit much. If you are "grouping gourges together" meaning more than one in a spot, and having 3-4 skulks thats pretty much the whole team, even in some larger games. You would have to start every game with the aliens moving all together to cap nodes (not saying that would necessarily be bad) because by the time the typical alien team recognizes an rt rush it's usually over. Realistically you arn't even going to get that many people to help you, even on the TG server.

                        I would recommend getting some mcs early (one person drops one or two), and keeping each gorge guarded by at least one skulk. And sending more skulks as needed.

                        Gorges, you can heal yourselves now, and if you got adren, even if it's only level 1 or 2 your best bet is probably to hide behind the rt, healing it and yourself, and the skulks who run to you for help. Your goal should be to heal, stall for backup, and stay right there next to the rt. Not only is it what your trying to protect, but it will take lots of damage for you if you keep it between you and the marines.

                        Later in the game with level 3 adren you should be able to successfully defend an rt again one lmg marine as long as he doesn't get med spammed.


                        Other things I would suggest are having skulks go out scouting, and parasiting marines. You don't have to hunt down and kill every marine you see, you can use parasite and let them go. Help your team keep track of what the marines are up to. If you can see them coming you might get the help you need to the RT before they start attacking.


                        It seems fairly consistant that two marines take out a gorge and an rt because no skulk was there to begin with, or no skulks came later when needed. I don't think that should ever happen, we just need people to be more aware.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                          Originally posted by Irish Pirate
                          It seems fairly consistant that two marines take out a gorge and an rt because no skulk was there to begin with, or no skulks came later when needed. I don't think that should ever happen, we just need people to be more aware.
                          Excellent point.
                          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                            How does a skulk counter a shotgun? Well, the shotgun was probably not given to the marine with the direction to kill skulks. And while I realize this is not what you meant, I think this is an important point to consider.

                            The Shotgunner:

                            The first thing to consider when countering this unit is it's objective.

                            The most common uses for a shotgun are:

                            1. Killing a hive.
                            2. Killing a fade.
                            3. Killing chambers/gorge.
                            4. General purpose defending a dangerous location.

                            When shotguns are most commonly distributed.

                            1. Just after a phase gate goes up in an important spot in which the commander is either expecting heavy incoming (nondescreet PG) or wants to simply rush a hive (ninja).
                            2. At marine start, with the aim to kill a fade.
                            3. At marine start, with the aim to kill a gorge fort.

                            I think the main thing to remember is that you will not achieve a single damn thing as a alien without backup. In situation 1, the marines will be probably somewhat flustered, either by building sieges or by the general din that usually ensues in a shotgun rush. If they are building, wait for all aliens to spawn and rush your heads off.. GET CELERITY. If they are shotgun rushing DO NOT try to bite one to death on the way in. You may kill one or two but you probably will not spawn before the hive is dead. Instead, simply hide in or near the hive room until the marines begin to fire at the hive. "Shoot only the hive" indeed! If 3-4 skulks pounce on the marine team, they'll go down faster than.. well.. they'll go down fast. The skulks will only be able to kill the marine team in time if they wait until the marines have truly committed. Never hurts to have a couple OCs and healing gorges. Umbra, of course, is HUGE.

                            The second situation is the fade. No marine team can afford to randomly pass out shotguns for long. So basically, parasite the shotgunners and team up with the fade. I can't stress parasite enough, this is critical. Don't worry about dying to shotgunners as skulks. They weren't dropped for you. However, if you use teamwork and ambush smartly, I think you'll find a lot of marines running around attempting to recycle shotguns to a comical degree.

                            Finally, the gorge fort. Treat this sorta like the hive, but sorta like the fade. Defending this may be more tricky, because the marines are unlikely to expend their entire clip at the fort, unless they feel threatened. A lerk sporing plus a skulk waiting for the clips to lighten does wonders on shotguns. A gorge must, of course, be healing.


                            "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                            "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: TacticalWiki article research: Counters

                              I have seen shotguns distributed to kill lerks as well. And though HMGs are the weapon of choice against onos, IMHO shotgun is the best weapon of the game.

                              Shotguns are effective against both the players and the structures. In enough numbers shotgunners can take out an onos too... it's just a bit harder than hmgs. It takes between 9 and 17 full on shotgun blasts to kill an onos depending on # of hives and level or cara. This isn't counting for regen rate.

                              But your right, if there are only skulks around the commander doesn't usually think to drop shotguns. If your team is doing well enough, and the enemy doesn't have higher life forms, you don't usually need to spend the res. And if shotguns around around because they are left over from a previous assult that killed your higher life forms you are probably screwed anyway.

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