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  • Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

    Ahh, the siege. It is truly a beautiful thing. Marines, having lost the element of surprise, or facing a well defended hive, will try a more brute force approach. In a typical pub siege, marines must battle leaping skulks, bile bomb, fades, spores, enfuriating hitboxes, and extraordinary amounts of mic-spam, negativity, yelling, and general chaos.

    Let's analyze why many sieges fail.

    First off: marines may not have any sense of security while they build (or dont build!!) your cannons. Marines MUST TRUST that they can lower their gun and build, or you will lose precious time. One thing you can do to ease their troubled mind (after they powerbuild that TF, stress this, PWERBUILD THE TF) if is drop 2 turrets. The mere sight of a turret will raise morale.

    Second: when the aliens (skulks, lerks, and fades) first begin to pour it on, many marines are scattered and confused by who is building and who is guarding. This problem is exaggerated when the zones are hazy. In the picture below you will see clearly how 3 people can very effectively guard while the other 4 people get the sieges up in a remarkably efficient manner. The sieges are AGAINST THE WALL. Please think about friendly fire and how much harder it would be for aliens if they have only 1 object to hide behind (the front siege) which is being covered by a turret.

    Third: When the bile bomb starts, marines are often not in a position to neutralize. 1 gorge bile bombing while you beacon will probably cost you your entire siege. If you decide to pick it back up, chances are the third hive will be pumping before you manage to kill the second one, and your resource towers are surely in tatters.

    Fourth: Not sufficiently consistant damage. Build a second obs if you have to. Build a third. Whatever it takes. Build a fourth or fifth siege, just GET THAT PUPPY DEAD FAST. Time is the most valuable resource in every RTS.

    Things I suggest doing to counter these points:

    First: CALL BY NAME WHO IS TO BUILD AND WHO IS TO SHOOT. Also, drop 2 turrets while the siege upgrades. Believe me, 20 res is worth the added security and 'ease-of-mind'. Ease of mind = built structures. Drop one pack of mines.


    ******** ATTENTION ALL MARINES **********
    CHECK YOUR FOURTH AND FIFTH WEAPON SLOT OFTEN DURING SIEGES. THOSE MINES OR THAT WELDER (WHICH YOU MAY HAVE INADVERTANTLY PICKED UP) COULD MAKE THE DIFFERENCE, EASILY.

    Secondly: Keep a good supply of ammunition going. Your marines trust you to give them ammo to the point where many of them wont even look at their clips until it is too late. Try to predict. Order your marines to STAY ALIVE! This sounds silly, but it really is not. Many marines, myself included, often do not know if their role is better served suiciding on a gorge healing or hiding around the corner waiting for that fade or for sieges to do their job.

    Third: Be ready for the bile bomb, and be ruthless. Remember that the alien team consists of no more than 8 players on TG. Remember that if a gorge dies it will take him a considerable amount of time to respawn and safely gestate, get upgrades, and start biling/healing again. If you see a gorge bile bombing, and notice a marine get some good hits on him before he retreats, don't hesitate. Cover that marine! Kill those skulks that try to save the gorgie! KILL THE GORGIE!! Every dead gorgie brings you much closer to a dead hive, in a siege.

    Fourth: And I admit I picked this up from Wyz, After you've seen 10-15 siege blasts hit the hive, make sure your team outnumbers their skulks, and move in. Tell the marines to shoot skulks and then the hive. After the hive goes down, kill off the fade and chambers.



    In the above picture, please note that the siege turrets hug the east wall completely. This is for three reasons. First, marines (shown as light blue circles) should have a relatively clear shot of any skulks biting on the sieges without having to get too near. Secondly, gorges must actually enter the room to bile bomb (bile bomb trajectory is illustrated with green lines). This allows you to more easily take out the little buggers, and also forces them to inadvertantly block fades (the typical path of a fade is in RED. Last, but NOT least, marines can walk around freely. There's nothing worse than trying to fight with sieges and skulks over walking space.

    Another picture illustrates the gorges perspective on the battle, with the hidden sieges marked as red Xs.



    The single sentry turret in the above example provides excellent cover for reloading marines, and the ones by the PG (not illustrated) for the inevitable beacon. If one marine with a shotgun stands at the location marked (first pic), it will certainly force the aliens to eliminate this marine before they can expect to bile bomb, or safely fade.

    One final thought: The phase gate is in severe danger of both sporing and bile bomb, so consider moving it if 2 hives are active, or if your marines are spending a lot of time getting spored, and phasing. The good thing about the location, when considering spores, is that the marines should not have to stand where they can be badly spored, as long as they can move away from the PG.

    Main point of this thread is: DON'T JUST PUT DOWN BUILDINGS ARBITRARILY. Every structure's placement has an effect, and the more gunfire near the building, the more this is true. Consider the advantages and disadvantages of limiting movement carefully.

    And now I have to go. I will submit more pics and analysis should people find this helpful.

    -aes0p r0ck
    Last edited by aesop rock; 01-12-2006, 10:49 PM.


    "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

    "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

  • #2
    Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

    Sounds good. I think many of us (myself included) could learn alot in the way of proper placement of structures, seiges especially.

    Knowing what to put against a wall and what to have in the middle of a room can help alot in building bases and attacking posts.

    The things you need to consider when placing a structure:
    1) how easily can aliens get to it?

    If it's near the place that the aliens will be coming from, and thus one of the first things they will run into it will be more of a target. If you can draw the aliens into the middle of the area you are controlling with your marines then it will be easier to defend.

    2) how easy is it for aliens to hide beind/get cover while attacking it?

    If an alien can get on the other side of it, and you can't shoot through it it may take two marines to stop the alien. Further, if to get line of sight on the back side of the structure you would have to get close to it, a marine trying to stop the alien may become a quick snack (for a good example of this is the beta deck node on whatever that map is that has equilibrium, alpha, and cargo hives.)

    3) Half of the answer to both of those questions involves answering the question; Where will the marines most likely be when the aliens are attacking that structure?

    From the direction of pushing out something might be well defended, but the very things that make it well defended may make it harder if your marines have to walk in from the other direction to recapture it. You always might want to consider what you, as the commander, will be looking at when you hop out of the chair. If you can see the obs on the other side of the room near the wall where aliens can't hide behind it you may be able to defend it from skulks. If you can see the armory in the middle of the room, a skulk could easily hide behind it even if it's in the middle of the base and you were counting on the travelling marines to have good sight all around the armory. Things like mines to cover what you can't guard may help you as the commander defend the base. If you put mines where aliens would want to hide so that you can't see them when you hop out of the chair you might effectively deter skulk attacks without even shooting any of them.

    You usually have to make a choice between putting something against a wall, and putting mines around to to protect it. Mines won't effectively cover things near walls, and marines won't be able to cover as well things in the middle of the room.

    Phasegates are so low nothing can hide behind them so there is no reason you can't put mines and have marines guarding it well, same with ips.

    Having armories in the open will allow marines to look in whatever direction they like while getting ammo instead of facing a wall or corner.

    Turret factories can go either way, I would say it depends if you plan on electrifying it. If you are doing a seige and have res spilling out of your pockets and onto the floor, knowing you are going to start electrifying as soon as the seige upgrade is done may influence your placement of the tf.

    Turrets make sense to place in relatively open areas as you want them to have an effective line of sight.

    Seiges on the other hand, as mentioned, would be better placed near walls since they don't require line of sight, and there is little hope of effectively mining the opposite sides.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

      best siege ever. I used it multiple times tonight and took the hive down each time. +rep aesop :)
      --------

      Zephyr: Besides Wyzcrak and his godly voice; the kind of voice that you will expect to say "Zephyr, I need you to build an ark at Marine Start, with room for two of every structure so that I may turret spam for 40 days and 40 nights" that is.

      Squeak:Sometimes I'm awed by zibs genius. Then I remember he's Canadian and I feel significantly less threatened.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

        seige reach has always been something i've worried about as com. Unless I have been suggested a place by an experience marine on the ground, or if I know of a good location on a spicific map, I generally put the seiges closer to the hive then needed just to insure that I didnt waste res on useless structures. Does anyone have any tips for eyeballing the max range on a seige, or any sites/forums that list good siege locations?
        I am a n00b. If I beat you, it must be a mistake.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

          Originally posted by Shroud
          seige reach has always been something i've worried about as com. Unless I have been suggested a place by an experience marine on the ground, or if I know of a good location on a spicific map, I generally put the seiges closer to the hive then needed just to insure that I didnt waste res on useless structures. Does anyone have any tips for eyeballing the max range on a seige, or any sites/forums that list good siege locations?
          I believe that LazyEye is in the process of making a kick-ass map-by-map, hive-by-hive ideal siege location primer.
          Cool! Personalized plates! Barclay, Barry, Bert, Bort...come on...Bort?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

            Originally posted by zibalatz
            I believe that LazyEye is in the process of making a kick-ass map-by-map, hive-by-hive ideal siege location primer.
            Crap! And I am halfway done with mine :(

            see:



            I have about half of the maps to go i would if i should bother :(
            Last edited by aeroripper; 01-17-2006, 03:33 AM.
            Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
            Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

              You two could collaborate! OHNOES, COLLABORATION? TEAMWORK? SELF-LOVE? (Ok, ignore the last one).

              This thread wins, specificaly because it DID help keres. And we all know keres needs all the help she can get ;)
              USAR

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

                Thanks for the input, guys and Keres (:P) . I would be stoked to work with both lazy-eye and aeroripper on a project such as that. And shroud, try just hosting a passworded game with sv_cheats on.. you can get the practice you need without distractions. That's how I made these images.


                "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Efficient and marine-friendly structure placement.

                  Even better, type this in console:

                  bind "x" "sv_cheats 1; bigdig; givepoints; spawnhive"

                  That will turn on cheats, insta-build, giveres, and a hive so i speeds it up dramatically...

                  Anybody know where lazyeye posted about this? His might look a lot better than mine :O.
                  Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
                  Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

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