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comm tactic with 3 vs 3

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  • comm tactic with 3 vs 3

    Hi, my name is Tim and I'm a noob commander.

    I jumped in a pub server and tried comm for a 3 on 3. Not sure about what map it was. I dropper armory, ip and sent them to the first RT. RT was setup and I brought them back to setup arms lab. I sent them to setup the 2nd RT when the first started getting attacked. From there is was down hill until we were OCed at each RT and hallway and well "gg".

    How do I learn to comm?
    How do you comm a small team?

  • #2
    Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

    Hi, Tim! :)

    "How do I learn to command?"

    That's several unique questions disguised together as one question.

    "How do I learn to be a leader?"

    "How do I learn strategy?"

    "(How) do I micro-manage my marines' tactics?"

    "How do I manage an economy and income?"

    One answer, which applies to all of these questions, is "practice." Another is "observation." Observe other commanders in action ( come to our HLTV Session tomorrow night! :) ). Take notes. Decide what you agree with, and what you don't. Then apply what you've learned to your own time in the chair. If you practice on this server, let folks know you're new, as, if it's during prime time, you're likely to get your ass handed to you a few times by the aliens. But don't write yourself off the page, as I've seen new commanders, with competant marines, win games against very intimidating alien rosters.

    If I had to focus on one aspect of commanding, when getting you up to speed, it would be leadership. Anyone can learn strategy. Anyone can learn tactics. Most can develop the sense of timing and opportunity that commanding involves.

    Few among us are confident leaders. Win or lose, this confidence -- indeed this leadership -- is what makes being a Natural Selection marine on the ground most entertaining. I want someone in command who will.... command. That doesn't mean you can't request recommendations from those on the ground, especially while you're new to commanding, but there's a time for recommendations and there's a time for orders.

    So give orders decisively, and with purpose. Yeah, you'll screw up. Yeah, you'll eventually say something that is really stupid. Yeah, your decisions will lose the game for your team from time to time. But you'll see, over time, that those are the exception. The norm will be that you'll have 7 folks under your command who look to you for leadership and orders. If you can give them quickly enough to outpace the opposition, your marines will give you plenty of victories, and they'll thank you for having had the opportunity to have done so.
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    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.


    • #3
      Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

      This applies to games from 2v2 to 3v3. At 4v4, these tricks won't have the same impact.


      For small games (2v2, 3v2, or 3v3), travel time is exceptionally important. I will push for phase tech as my first or second upgrade, with the hopes that my rines will be able to set up an "output" in a strategically important area.

      On starting the game, your marines should immeadiatly run for an RT. Jump in the chair, drop their RT, then drop an IP. When you drop the second IP, it should be far away from the first, but still in line of fire (so players spawning have a chance against skulks, espeically if two players spawn at once).

      As players are needed to run around the map, I beleive that turret factories are important. (This also allows you to get electrication upgrades for RTs) The important thing to remember about the turrets is they are there to buy you time. They will not stop the aliens, you just want to buy yourself 30 seconds so you can get your team in. Make sure you place turrets so that there aren't blind spots.

      As you don't have to spend as much res on equiment, I like to make a second base, with CC, IP's, Phase Gate, and all the upgrade buildings (espeically advanced armory.) If you are careful enough to hide your second base, you can offer your first base as a timesink to the aliens. With a TF, usually they try to attack with a Fade. You can oppucy a precious few minutes of the Fade's time as he demolishs your "old" base, and make a move on the alien RT's and a hive.

      The aliens will have a huge stockpile of resources, resource starving tactics take a while to combat. It is better to focus on the concept of area control, finding choke points and setting up a TF and PG output. Again, this buys time until you can send marines in.

      For the endgame, the mobility of Jetpacks have more to offer than the tanking of Heavy Armor. Chances are the aliens have an area full of OC's and DC's, so your are better of trying to seige through, or have a GL fly into a position where he can bounce grenades around a wall.

      Lastly, it helps if you work with teammates who can jump in the comm chair for a bit, allowing for greater flexibility.



      With 2 aliens, there is little, if any, wait time on minerals. With a 3rd, things will slow down a bit. Your early game obejectives are to get some RT's down and get resources flowing in.

      As with the marines, you have fewer players, so OC's will make excellent sentries. Again, they won't stop the rines, but you can weaken them, slow them down, and if they attack the OC, you'll see where they are in hive sight.

      Don't make huge groups of buildings, this will create blindspots which the marines can get by. And in the later game, you want a lot of cover area to kill Jetpacks. As they fly through several hallways with an OC each in them, the damage adds up over time.

      Be sure to have backup's of your upgrade buildings in different hives. Play your upgrades carefully. If the marines lock down a 3rd hive, or relocate to a 3rd hive, you will be in for a very hard fight. Personally, I think that DC's and MC's give you the best performace, as in the mid to late game I find it very hard to do much without adreniline and regeneration.

      The marines don't have hivesight, only their commander will see attack messages, and even then, it is possible to overload him with attack messages. One of my favorite things to do is drop an OC by his RT. If you leave it unbuilt, it will start attacking the OC some seconds later. Thus, the commander is now trying to respond to an "attack" by an alien with isn't there. Do this to several OC's, and he may not notice attacks done by actual aliens. And if they don't take the time to respond, they will eventually loose the RT.

      As for Onoses, the marines will probably consider it bad taste to try this in a small game. Use this sparingly.




      • #4
        Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

        My best advice would be to first relocate to a hive location.

        Also, as with normal size games, res is what will win the game for you (other things being relatively equal) In small games it can be hard to secure all the resnodes you want, but it's way up there priority wise.


        • #5
          Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

          Very small (3v3 and under) marine games are completely different from normal (6v6 and up) NS. There is entirely new world of strategy there, and I can barely begin to touch on it here. But I'll give you some tips to get you started.

          You MUST start out very aggressively. Why? In a word, OCs. In large games, OCs arent very cost efficient, and can be easily destroyed by a couple of LMG marines investing some time on them. In very small games, the res cost of OCs becomes much less noticeable, and the manpower effectiveness of them becomes much greater. So within a few minutes, you can expect to start seeing OCs spring up all over the map. They aren't unkillable, but they will slow you down tremendously. So you have to take maximum advantage of your first 2-3 minutes when you can roam the map freely, and with a shotgun you can handle anything the aliens throw at you during that time period.

          Next, DONT electrify RTs, except maybe in base. An electric RT is nothing but an invitation for a gorge to drop 2 or 3 OCs next to it. Yes, that will take time to kill it, but with the extreme emphasis of manpower over res in very small games, the aliens are actually better off doing that than having a skulk chew on it anyway. After you factor in the 30 res you spent electrifying, you've gained very little. And on the downside, if you ever want to recap that RT, now you KNOW your going to have to fight through 2 or 3 OCs to get there. If you leave the RT unguarded, theres a much better chance you will come back to find an equally unguarded alien RT on your recapping mission.


          • #6
            Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

            Also don't underestimate the power of shotguns early in the game. In small games you can expect to encounter gorges frequently, and not have the manpower to doubleteam them. Shotguns dispatch them in 3 good shots. They are also good for those pesky OCs which are suddenly everywhere.

            A 1 hive gorge can absorb 290 damage with no upgrades and with no regen rate. You can count on it taking at least one more bullet to cover just the natural regen if your using lmg. For every additional hive they get there will be another 35 points of damage they can take, and if they have adren and are healing themselves time can quickly become an issue for how much damage they have to last through. It can be very hard for a vanilla marine to kill a gorge. I think a vanilla marine dies in 12 sprays if there are no medpacks involved, I'm not sure how fast an adren gorge can pump that out.


            • #7
              Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

              Nice to see a new guy in are forums. Welcome gunfodder.


              • #8
                Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

                Originally posted by Irish Pirate
                A 1 hive gorge can absorb 290 damage with no upgrades and with no regen rate. You can count on it taking at least one more bullet to cover just the natural regen if your using lmg. For every additional hive they get there will be another 35 points of damage they can take, and if they have adren and are healing themselves time can quickly become an issue for how much damage they have to last through. It can be very hard for a vanilla marine to kill a gorge. I think a vanilla marine dies in 12 sprays if there are no medpacks involved, I'm not sure how fast an adren gorge can pump that out.
                Sidenotes on Gorge math--

                Unless you catch a gorge in the open and are pretty confidant you are hitting with most of your shots, I often find these days that its more effective to reload your LMG once before switching to pistol or knife. Most gorges cant kill you in the time it takes to reload an LMG, so its really only an issue when skulks are coming too.

                Healspray deals 13 + 4% damage, which is 17 against marines. Marines have 160/200/240/280 hp, depending on armor, which translates to 10/12/15/17 attacks with no medpacks.

                Finally, if the comm IS med-spamming the marine, he's almost certainly better off reloading than knifing. Its very difficult for a gorge to kill a marine in medspam without backup, and it could take quite awhile to chase down that gorge with your knife, especially if you didn't hit with very much of your first clip.


                • #9
                  Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

                  A gorge hiding behind an rt can hold off a marine suprisingly long. As long as there is only one marine. With adrenaline early in the game, I've managed to hold off the marines that came one at a time at places like c-12.

                  Gorges best defense is probably the ability to drop things and keep them between themselves and the marines, and then heal both themselves and the dropped structure. It usually gets marines to try to run over and knife you, which is the point I usually switch over to spit and finish them off from just out of knife range.

                  I still need to bind oc dropping to a key though...

                  But yes, the pistol only does 200 damage if you actually hit with all 10 shots, and if you missed with half your lmg clip your probably not the type of person to do much better. Ideally as a commander you will know what marines on your team will be able to handle what. Most of the time I would rather the marine take the point, and as fast as possible. If you invest the 10 res in a shotgun in a small game odds are when the marine dies no one will be near by to reclaim it. If you have good marines who wouldn't die with it, they would probably get along without it anyway.

                  But regardless, since there will be ocs and rts everywhere, I think in small games most marines would be better off having shotguns if they can manage to keep them for a while. A lone marine lmging down a structure is much more vunerable if the skulks attack between clips, and knifing rts can take ages for one marine.


                  • #10
                    Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

                    Small games (for marines) are all about dominating your opponent in one place with overpowered technology (jetpacks/hmgs) at one place very quickly. In a 3v3, Aliens simply cannot afford to have more than two non-gorge lifeforms. On top of that, their versatility is very limited. An onos may be able to stomp, but without a lerk to umbra or skulks to bite, he will die quickly. Similarly, the lerk may be impossible to kill, but really can't kill well equipped marines, either. So tech up weapons and equipment before intel, and make sure your marines ALWAYS have the best gun possible and a welder. Also, get lots of armor upgrades. Death is far less acceptable in a small game. I recommend JPs. If your two jetpack marines can kill whatever life forms they have, they can fly around the map GLing everything down, relatively unopposed (every minute, they have to kill two increasingly weaker aliens). It's very difficult for aliens to stop powerfully teched marines in a small game, just as it's hard for marines to prevent aliens from dominating general map control with OCs.

                    As for onos, GO ONOS. I say it's not REALLY bad taste. This is war! Besides, how many times do you see marines go jetpack in a small game. I see no difference here.

                    "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                    "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious


                    • #11
                      Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

                      Heres a few tactics I have used to win a small game.

                      Rush Jetpacks - Upgrade the armory right off the bat, send your marines to cap around 3 or more nodes, call your marines back to base when the armory is almost done and have them build the proto, then research jetpacks. If you didn't waste res or medspam like crazy you should have enough res to outfit two marines with JP shottys. If you have an obs ping the hives to see what one has less OCs in it (aliens seem not to OC the hive rooms in small games =/.) Now rush the hive, tell your marines to just to shoot the hive, drop them meds and ammo all around the room as needed. This should all be finished before the second hive is up.

                      Rush the main hive and siege it - This one is kind of know how every alien runs off and goes gorge and builds a node in a small game? well yeah they kind of forget about their starting hive, after building an ip and a obs in base send your marines to the starting hive (listen for alines in the chair and you can generally tell what the starting hive is.) Now build a TF and drop as many sieges as you can, if the aliens don't notice you, you win.

                      Relocate to a hive - Basicly you relocate to a hive then lock the other one down with turrets, after you are done building base go right to the other free hive.


                      • #12
                        Re: comm tactic with 3 vs 3

                        Rush main hive and Seige it:
                        This one can work, but speed is everything in small games. I've seen several games where marines did this and killed the main hive around 3:30, by which time hive 2 was halfway up and hive 3 was locked down with OCs, and the main result was allowing the aliens to get 3 upgrades off 2 Hives, and they came back to win.

                        In a very small game, you can expect the second hive to start around 2:30. If you don't have a plan to hit at least one of the 3 hive rooms by then, you're too slow.




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