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  • hurting your team by killing the "negative threat"

    "Negative threat" is what I call an opposition unit who has positioned himself such that his potential to harm your team is raised when you kill him.

    I'll let Q/A drive us into detail, but .... please... if the opposition unit isn't doing any harm, and his position means he won't be DOING any harm, LEAVE HIM BE. He's an ASSET to YOUR team if he is left ALONE, wasting time in useless isolation.
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    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  • #2
    Re: hurting your team by killing the "negative threat"

    Originally posted by Wyzcrak
    "Negative threat" is what I call an opposition unit who has positioned himself such that his potential to harm your team is raised when you kill him.

    I'll let Q/A drive us into detail, but .... please... if the opposition unit isn't doing any harm, and his position means he won't be DOING any harm, LEAVE HIM BE. He's an ASSET to YOUR team if he is left ALONE, wasting time in useless isolation.
    There is no such thing as useless isolation.

    That said, there are types of isolation that are more useful than others, and teams should try to budget accordingly. That MIGHT mean that your team would totally ignore the opposing player, but more often than not, I think it means that one person SHOULD be assigned to at the very least keep tabs on the isolationist, if not outright kill him.
    [volun2]
    NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
    Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
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    • #3
      Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

      Agreed, but all of that can be managed while leaving the guy alone. Have the comm listen to the vent. Have folks watch the dot on the minimap, or the blurb on MT, and act when he acts.

      Yes, there's risk involved. I just wish people would consider the OPTION of letting the other guy rot a way for a while. Just imagine the guy in a penalty box and move the puck down the ice already.
      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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      • #4
        Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

        It sounds like it is an issuing of "budgeting" (that was definitely the right word to use poker) your time as an alien, and putting it where the priority is higher. If some guy is sitting in the dead end weldable in alpha hive on ns_lost, leave him be while you concentrate on the guy that's walking into coolant near your equil hive.

        Sure the guy in alpha could in a short time build a node and get a phase gate on the other side of the map, but its lower on the list of things to stop if there is something of more urgence that needs to be attended to. If you kill him while he's really not accomplishing much there, he'll be back in MS and ready to move instantanously out to wherever the current hotspot is on the map.
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        • #5
          Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

          My argument is harder when it's a marine who's isolated, as isolated marines can turn into 8 marines very quickly. In the same spirit, a gorge "alone" in a hive room is not something you want to "save for later."

          I'm talking about the lerk in the vent that draws the pistol fire of the five marines I've just ordered through the dying phase gate. Hell.. even ONE marine is costing me more than I want spent on that lerk, as that lerk would be FAR more harmful, as a lerk /or/ a respawned skulk, at the hive location I'm trying to siege.

          Let him spore base all day long! You're hopping through a phase gate the moment you spawn, and structures don't take spore damage.

          The same could be said about the gorge who is bile bombing from the vent and doing zero or negligible damage to my base. Leave him there and be glad he's not healing the hive we're sieging!
          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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          • #6
            Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

            Ahh yes I recognize these scenarios well.

            The lerk on the landing pad on ns_hera, and the gorge\lerk in the vent outside double on ns_caged.
            Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
            Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

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            • #7
              Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

              Exactly. And, yeah, there are exceptions. If the lerk is positioned such that every single marine being spored somehow leaves the cloud with zero armor, then, yeah, something needs to be done.

              But it's just soooo often that I see my team HURT US by spending a VERY inordinate amount of time on the player whose death HURTS us more than it helps us, and I really, really want people to wake up.
              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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              • #8
                Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                Exactly. And, yeah, there are exceptions. If the lerk is positioned such that every single marine being spored somehow leaves the cloud with zero armor, then, yeah, something needs to be done.

                But it's just soooo often that I see my team HURT US by spending a VERY inordinate amount of time on the player whose death HURTS us more than it helps us, and I really, really want people to wake up.
                Can something be "very inordinate"?
                [volun2]
                NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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                • #9
                  Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                    Interestingly enough I think many minor alien base rushes would turn in to more base crushing madness if the other aliens don't kill the marines out around the map.

                    2-3 skulks do a better job of taking out a base if marines are not spawning in as usually once one of the aliens dies they don't go back for a good while.

                    Strategically it would make sense in a situation like this to have the other aliens "stalk" the remaining marines to try and prevent a relocation instead of actually killing them and allowing them the chance to take back thier base.

                    This does seem much more relevent to aliens being some place. There are many times as a skulk in the vent between overlook and west I find I am able to keep marines distracted just by my presence. They know I will kill the RT if they leave me alone so they wait there for a while.

                    1) I regenerate my health, admittedly slowly.
                    2) I can potentially kill an RT
                    3) I can parasite marines who go by from this vent.
                    4) I can defend overlook if we have a node there.
                    5) Any time I waste trapped is also time marines waste watching for me.

                    The marines get to defend thier base from other intrusions from that side as well? They don't get as much out of the deal. I have more to gain by waiting there than they do.

                    I think Wyz, you are talking about scenarios where the aliens are slightly more useless. Gorges can often find themselves in places where they are not really doing anything, and some newer players have a tendency to stay gorge until they die instead of gesting back. You also see gorges sometimes in vents or something where they ar enot really reaching anything. Structures they can potentially drop are rarely a threat.

                    EDIT: By killing them you are also denying them the opportunity to realize that you can ignore them and just let them sit there so they should find something else to do.

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                    • #11
                      Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                      How about that tanith game last night when I, as a gorge, ran through Chem. Trans., saw a marine just hanging in the little tunnel under the platform, and decided to ignore him? I believe his recon was enough to convince Wyz that walking to SatCom was a good idea (they killed the hive).

                      If something can be done quickly and effectively, do it. If the amount of time and resources you have to put into taking care of something greatly outweighs the cost (or potential cost) get over it.
                      Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

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                      • #12
                        Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                        Wyz, I fully agree that marines need to be able to grasp the goal at hand better. Some of them just dont' nkow how to prioritize (or listen to the comm for that matter).

                        Having said that, last night in cargo outside fusion, i remember you telling us to leave the gorge that was sitting up top alone.... :P
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                        • #13
                          Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                          I'm starting to think that Wyz's analysis applies only to the marine team spending time to kill an alien in an annoying or hard-to-reach area. These are definitely distractions and time-wasters. Given the nature of phase gates, however, I'd be hard pressed to find a situation where a lone marine would not be worth both reporting his presence and killing.

                          I think it's possible that marines should always consider ignoring "negative threats" whereas for aliens, one must always neutralize isolated threats?
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                          • #14
                            Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                            My managing the gorge in cargo last night was poor judgment. Each of the scenarios I describe requires judgment, and my point is valid despite last night (I realize you didn't suggest otherwise).

                            Originally posted by zibalatz
                            I think it's possible that marines should always consider ignoring "negative threats" whereas for aliens, one must always neutralize isolated threats?
                            Perfect, really... especially the "consider" part.
                            Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                            • #15
                              Re: hurting your team by killing the &quot;negative threat&quot;

                              My personal favorite as lerk is to harass the marine team so badly they spend the game trying to kill me.....not the hives. It's amazingly effective. It's more enjoyable than killing the entire team over and over, because then they know why they lost. When you just harass them to death (literally), it takes them a while to understand why they lost.

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