Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

3.0 Upgrades

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 3.0 Upgrades

    After thinking it over I figured I should make this thread. This thread will feature the pros and cons of DMS, MDS, and SMD. I hope to keep it updated based on new patterns and whatever new cons and pros come up.

    #1: DMS (Defence, Movement, Sensory) Ahhh the good old fashion DMS.
    Pros are its familiar, gives higher lifeforms the upgrades they need the most, give skulks regen or cara, allows for healing stations early, (Not used often but it has been used and with great effect.) and can heal a hive granted not fast enough for much but some is better then none. It also helps heal lifeforms which makes regen's, gorges', and hive's healing job slightly faster.

    Recommended upgrades: Skulks should get regen or cara. Gorges should get cara if they are going to bilebomb, provide forward building with DCs or other gorges, or heal other combat units with another gorge. Gorges should get regen if they are planning on bilebombing from a vent for example or forward construction without DCs in the area. Lerks should get either regen if they plan on providing support with umbra and gas or cara which lets them take a full shotgun blast (except lvl3 i believe) if they plan on being not just support but anti JP units. Fades should get either regen or cara and the same goes for onos however an onos should only do that if gorges will be around to heal.

    cons: Cara and regen aren't exactly the best skulks upgrades. Puts alot of weight on the one or two fades. Not as easy to defend hives because of lack of being able to movement to 2nd building hive if it comes under attack and no scent of fear.

    #2 MDS (Movement, Defence, Sensory)
    Pros: Scilence is a very helpful upgrade for skulks. All lifeforms can enjoy celerity and adren helps all lifeforms as well. Adren gorges make up for lack of DCs. Moving between the orginal hive and the building hive is easier thus assisting defence of the hives in early game. Also its closest related to DMS so its helps higher lifeforms. (granted not as good as DMS) The game doesn't depend on a one or two medium/heavy combat units.

    cons: Lifeforms must rely on hive healing or gorge healings (not to bad on the gorge part because of adren.) The game now depends on how well light combat units can fight. Easily countered with motion tracking and armor upgrades.

    #3 SMD (Sensory, Movement, Defence)
    pros: The new clocking is very effective and scent of fear and clocking from the SCs helps alot in defence of hives and important areas. Focus benefits high lifeforms and skulks.

    cons: Must rely on gorges (non adren til hive 2) or hives. Countered by armor upgrades, motion, and mutiple obs. Higher lifeforms suffer from the lack of Ds especially lerks that die pretty fast without cara granted cele makes up for it abit and so does adren. HMGs will definately spell the death of ANY lifeform.

    There are obviously more variations. I just choose to go over the ones' i have used. I am gonna try SDM today but I have my doubts. I will update it as I can find more pros and such and I wanna add an in-depth on all of the upgrades and what benefits what lifeform.
    Last edited by RGM-79N_GM_CUstom; 03-07-2005, 06:04 PM. Reason: Finshing it up
    RX-78-2 Gundam EFSF Protoype Close Combat Mobile Suit Armor: Luna Titanium Armament: 2x Beam Sabers, 2x 60mm Head vulcan guns 380mm Hyper bazooka, Beam Rifle, Beam Javelin, Hyper Hammer, Gundam Hammer, shield
    TG Natural Selection admin. Need anything PM me.
    7th Infantry FTW!!!!!
    "Snob? Nah...I consider myself more of a PC Evangelist...converting the heathens to The Way." Prophaniti
    "Windows is like Pokemon you gotta catch'em all." kenshinsama1

    [tg-c1]

  • #2
    Re: 3.0 Upgrades

    I know Custom isn't done with his post yet, but I can't resist but post my own impressions. My take won't be focused so much on chamber order so much as individual benefits of chambers on different life forms and so on.

    First, a quick chamber review:
    • Defense
      • Area effects: regen
      • Upgrades: redemption, cara, regen
    • Movement
      • Area effects: adrenaline, use for transport to hive
      • Upgrades: adrenaline, celerity, silence
    • Sensory
      • Area effects: cloaking, scent of fear
      • Upgrades: cloaking, scent of fear, focus


    Now for their effects/benefits on the different lifeforms:
    • For skulks:
      In the early game, I would argue that sense gives the most bang for your buck. Given the combination of area effects of sensories plus upgrades, you could potentially have all skulks be cloaked, sof, and focus (the only actually purchased upgrade). Also, since sense chambers are hidden they can be dropped outside of hive locations more easily. Once a1 and observatories come into effect (midgame, usu), sensory is weakened but still viable. In the late game, Sensory's primary value, imho, is sof to prevent hive rushes.

      As far as DC upgrades, having non-hive located healing stations and extra armor from cara are the main benefits. The danger is that DCs located "in the field" are easily destroyed and as a result such remote healing stations must be carefully hidden (possible in early game) or protected with OCs (not really possible in early game without a lot of coordination). Redemption alone is of little or no value for skulks.

      As far as MC upgrades, the area effect of adrenaline is pretty useless and transport to hives is not important in the early game. However, the upgrades of silence and celerity are tremendously useful in the early game. In the mid-game the area effect of adrenaline becomes more useful to replenish energy after much leaping, but is still not a huge benefit to skulks. On the other hand, an early second hive makes MC (for its hive transport capability) much more viable on maps where there are great distances between hives.
    • For Gorges:
      IMO, the best chamber for gorges is MC thanks to adrenaline and celerity (for running away). A gorge with MC in the early game is a portable healing station. With good teamwork this can substitute for DC's healing ability. And, of course, when 2 hives are up, bile is significantly more useful with adren.
      DC and SC are of limited value to the gorge. Of course healing is good but since the gorge should be staying out of combat anyway most of the time, passive regen should be enough. Getting sof to act as a scout gorge is less useful now that SC give localized sof as an area effect.
    • For Lerks:
      DC or MC are the best bet for lerks. SC is largely useless since lerks are either already hiding in vents or moving quickly (hence making cloaking moot) and rarely engaging in close quarters (hence making focus moot). All DC upgrades are worthwhile for the lerk, as well as all MC upgrades.
    • For Fades:
      For a 1-hive Fade, DCs are best. In order to effectively hit-and-run, you need to be able to heal and get back in the action quickly. With an andreline gorge healing you, a celerity fade is viable. SC focus fades are also workable but the problem of running back to the hive for healing slows fades down considerably.
      I would argue that at 2 hives, DCs are no longer necessarily the best because fades can heal themselves. An adren/sil/cel fade with focus can be quite effective. Adrenaline of course would make self-healing even more viable. Of course the danger here is that if the 2nd hive dies, the fade has no way to heal himself without adrenaline gorges.
      So overall, I would contend that, in the early game, DC fades are the way to go, but if you have an early 2nd hive, it may be worth going with something else. Planning for your fade in this way means your skulks can have, say, SCs, arguably the best chamber for skulks in the early game, allowing them to rack up res-for-kills quickly and get that hive or fade going as soon as possible.
    • For Onos:
      DC all the way for onos. There is no such thing as an "early onos" so mid- to late- game onoses will always need to have DC available, which it usually will be.


    Anyway, given the above, I'm not so sure that D/M/S is the necessary upgrade order any more. Certainly DCs are still very important but I feel they have less importance in the early game. The combined area effects and upgrade of SC can be tremendous in the early game. The upgrades of MC can be very viable in the early game as well. In the mid-game, however, the need for DCs becomes more apparent but it can be temporarily substituted with MC adrenaline gorges.

    And finally, chamber orders:
    • D/M/S is a viable chamber order but does not hugely benefit skulks. D/M/S is tailored to early fades, IMHO.
    • I would say that S/D/M is the next most viable chamber order and the most common alternate order I've seen. Early game Sense for the skulks followed by D for the fades.
    • D/S/M would be viable as well for focus fades. The other benefits of sensory would probably be best used to counter hive rushing and general intel but that's about it. By the time the SCs come up the marines should have a1 and obs.
    • S/M/D on the other hand is very dangerous. Leaving D till the endgame means that higher lifeforms must rely on adrenaline gorges and hives for healing, which is not really viable in the mid-to-late game where rapid response and covering large areas of the map is important (and not possible for adrenaline gorges to keep up with).
    • M/D/S is a viable chamber order. Early movement means silence or celerity with adrenaline gorges for support. Lerks are also more viable in the early game.
    • M/S/D is more dangerous for the same reason that S/M/D is more dangerous.


    Hmm... I think that's about it... Discuss!
    Cool! Personalized plates! Barclay, Barry, Bert, Bort...come on...Bort?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 3.0 Upgrades

      DMS is the only viable tactic for an unorganized alien team.. Since the loss of unchained, I've found the alien teams getting hammered when going sens first unless the marine team is just doing bone-head things.

      Hopefully, this will change once aliens start working on their new strats.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 3.0 Upgrades

        I don't think M/S/D is as bad as you make it sound.

        Which of the following will not have marines peeing their pants:
        A silent skulk
        A really fast skulk
        A one-bite-kill skulk
        A skulk who always knows where you are
        A skulk that has more armor... or something...

        The defensive upgrades are possibly the three worst upgrades in the game for skulk, and skulks are the most proflific members of an alien team. It definately helps to start moving strategy to skulks now and reducing the importance that seems to be placed on fades.

        Fades have their uses, but with motion first I've seen skulks filling the combat role more and more. With silence or celerity they can get up on marine's like it's nobody's business, and proceed to tear them apart. In the early 3.0 final games we've played, I've had no problem ripping up marines as skulk. One game I was the only fade our team had during the game, and I went fade after the third hive was up (and proceeded to suck, just further backing up the point that the game can be played without fades :P).

        Back to M/S/D, by the time the second hive is up, fades can heal themselves so D chambers aren't as much of a priority at this point. Cara might still help counter the weapons upgrades, but focus could help counter the armor (hit & run fade does a lot more damage) and scent of fear helps with the sneaky marine phasegates which are ever more of a threat as aliens expand and get spread thin.

        This is, of course, all strictly from the upgrade side dealing only with skulks and fades. Other variables may complicate things. Just read this as thinking out loud more than proving any kind of point. Here is a cupon redeemable for my $.02 at your local ns_ayumi bar.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 3.0 Upgrades

          Originally posted by rs_al
          I don't think M/S/D is as bad as you make it sound.
          Yeah it's not that bad. I think that S/M/D and M/S/D would, as you imply, mean a skulk-based win. In other words, the point of going S/M/D or M/S/D would be to hold marines back mostly using skulks. This does not imply that fades or other higher life forms are useless- they are still viable, just a bit trickier to work with. The idea with S/M/D or M/S/D would be to have "superskulks" running around and keeping the marines from gaining any ground.

          IMHO, the "danger" with S/M first is actually in wasting res on higher lifeforms when instead that res should arguably be spent on laming up the map more to gain more from the area effects of the chambers and to further prevent marine incursions.

          I dunno, just like al, I'm thinking out loud... :)
          Cool! Personalized plates! Barclay, Barry, Bert, Bort...come on...Bort?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 3.0 Upgrades

            Originally posted by rs_al
            Which of the following will not have marines peeing their pants:
            A silent skulk
            A really fast skulk
            A one-bite-kill skulk
            A skulk who always knows where you are
            A skulk that has more armor... or something...
            One word: Motion. I almost always go for it first thing, and it counters pretty much every one of those.

            I'm not saying it's not plausible, but go back to my post where I said "unorganized."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 3.0 Upgrades

              Upon playing alien in 3.0 final for a few days I have only two words to say (well, one word and one TLA):

              celerity ftw.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                I agree, I love MCS first, atleast for skulking just because of the speed bonus from celerity. Its like being able to bunnyhop sideways backwards and whichever way without actually having to bunnyhop, and then when you actually do bunnyhop you do so at an insane speed.

                This allows you to clsoe long distances and at the same time strafe side to side or whaever you want to do, without suffering as much of a speed drop.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                  Originally posted by TheFeniX
                  One word: Motion. I almost always go for it first thing, and it counters pretty much every one of those.

                  I'm not saying it's not plausible, but go back to my post where I said "unorganized."
                  Remember kiddies, this means you should kill Fenix's observatory as much as possible early game to drive him crazy as he repeatedly wastes res to upgrade it over and over. :-D
                  -Zephyr
                  You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

                  You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

                  Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

                  Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

                  We are no clan.
                  We are not a single game.
                  We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
                  We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                    ^^^^Fenix mine the obs.
                    RX-78-2 Gundam EFSF Protoype Close Combat Mobile Suit Armor: Luna Titanium Armament: 2x Beam Sabers, 2x 60mm Head vulcan guns 380mm Hyper bazooka, Beam Rifle, Beam Javelin, Hyper Hammer, Gundam Hammer, shield
                    TG Natural Selection admin. Need anything PM me.
                    7th Infantry FTW!!!!!
                    "Snob? Nah...I consider myself more of a PC Evangelist...converting the heathens to The Way." Prophaniti
                    "Windows is like Pokemon you gotta catch'em all." kenshinsama1

                    [tg-c1]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                      Skulks are expendable. Go forth my fellow mine sweepers!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                        I am THE Golden Lemming of Natural Selection! RAWR!
                        *jumps onto mine*
                        -Zephyr
                        You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

                        You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

                        Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

                        Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

                        We are no clan.
                        We are not a single game.
                        We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
                        We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                          For my first post on these forums:

                          What chamber is more useful first depends on a few things-
                          1) How organized is your team? (I'd recommend you never get movement if your team isn't working together. It's at it's best only when your team is working together)

                          2) How organized is the other team? (If they are well coordinated, DCs and MCs are a waste of res, they will easily hunt them down and kill them. SCs even the playing field by allowing you to analyse and destroy the marine coordination.)

                          3) Are the marines quickly on the offensive? (If the marines start trying to push the hive, or hives, early, SCs are an amazingly powerful defensive tool. They prevent ninjas, and allow groups to cloak/focus and quickly destroy larger groups of marines.)

                          4) How many RTs do you have or are about to have? ( Res is always good, but only movements can nearly maximum effectiveness with 3. Getting DCs or SCs when you have only 2-3 RTs means you won't be able to take full advantage of them.

                          Now a quick breakdown of some of the advantages and disadvantages of the chambers...



                          Defense:


                          Chamber- The structure itself allows you to heal more rapidly, which in turn allows you to spend more time in the fight. The problem is that only when you have several near each other do they become truly effective, so if you don't have the economy to frequently drop several near each other, they become almost worthless. The exception is on maps where single DCs dropped in vents and other areas allow skulks and lerks to heal thier small amount of health without running back to the hive.


                          Carapace-

                          For skulks, it allows them to survive when fighting advanced/upgraded weapons. It's usefulness in that aspect really comes down to the skill of the player.

                          I wouldn't recommend it for lerks, unless your one of those insane players that like to get up close and personal with marines.

                          It makes fades and onos much more difficult to kill, provided they have a good method for healing nearby. This is nearly a requirement for both species if the marines are travelling in packs.

                          Only if you're an insane battle gorge is this useful at all.


                          Regeneration-

                          For a skulk, this is only effective if you use hit and run surprise attacks.

                          This is a great ability for lerks, if you are playing the classic "in the vent, around the corner" style. Becuase of a lerks natural speed and difficulty to hit, it allows them to stick around the marines and pester them, becuase the small amounts of damage it recieves are quickly healed.

                          This can be very useful for fades, so long as you don't try to go toe to toe with any marines. It's one downside is that it becomes much less effective if the marines travel in groups and hunt you down. Fortunately, most marines don't seem to grasp this easy counter to the regen fade.

                          The onos should get this only if the he's going to either stay on the outskirts picking off weak outposts and RTs, or if the marines are not coordinating. Becuase this just isn't all that effective when groups of marines concentrate fire with upgraded guns.

                          Gorges are too slow early in the game to take advantage of this. While it helps with healing damage from running away, if you can't run, or are too late in running, it isn't helpful.


                          Redemption-

                          Don't get this as a skulk. It's very rare for it to take effect, to the point people are generally amazed when it works.

                          This sometimes works well with lerks, but with the lerks natural speed you can get out of combat quickly anyway.

                          Fades should get this if the team is low on resources. It doesn't work as often as you might like, but it saves you 50 res that you can't afford to lose.

                          Onos seem to be the ones able to take advantage of this the most often, but any smart player should know not to rely on it. Again, a must have if your low on res.

                          I'd recommend getting this for gorges, while it doesn't take effect all the time, it's better than the other options for keeping you alive.


                          Movement:

                          Chamber-

                          The movement chamber is very difficult to use as anything other than hive defense. It's only real use early in the game (other than to help defend the hives) is to help gorges out. By droping one by where they are working, a gorge has both something to help it serve as a healing station, and it is a good escape route if a marine unexpectedly shows up. Later in the game it helps fades set up acid rocket assualts, and it can serve as a good escape route for any onos that are severly hurt. I'd recommend getting movement first only if you are going to really push for a fast second hive.


                          Celerity-

                          While always useful for getting skulks around the map, in combat it's effectiveness is determined by the skill of the player.

                          This makes hit and run lerks really difficult to kill, and allows them effectively be about 10 seconds away from anywhere on the map (once you know how to fly well).

                          Get this for a fade only if you know how to use one well. The added speed makes good fade's lethal, but throws off many people who aren't used to it.

                          This is pretty much the only movement option for onos, making them more effective all around.

                          This can greatly help in keeping a gorge alive. Use it to run away and dodge.


                          Silence-

                          This is a great upgrade for skulks, up until MT arrives, at which point it becomes useless.

                          This can be a useful upgrade for lerks, except that both of the other upgrades are even more useful.

                          In the hands of someone who knows how to use it, this is a deadly upgrade for fades. By denying marines the tell-tale sound of blinking, they are more often then not taken by suprise by the fade. Even with MT it is useful, becuase MT does not tell the marines that the red dot is a fade.

                          It's an extremely rare player who can make good use of silence as an onos. An onos is just so easy to spot visually that it's advantage is minumal.

                          This can be helpful for gorges that are trying to be sneaky in thier placement of things, becuase it negates the sound you make while droping and building. It also helps in not letting the marines know you're there if you're serving as a mobile healer.


                          Adrenaline-

                          The only time this has any use for a skulk is if you're a RT destroyer.

                          This greatly helps with the lerks inherent problem of quickly running out of energy. Allowing a more frequent use of all of the lerks ablities.

                          For fades, early on this allows them to use blink more often, and therefore move around much faster. Much later on it is useful for acid rockets.

                          The only time you should get this early for an onos is if you plan on destroying alot of structures in a short time. Otherwise it's worthless until the advanced abilities are unlocked.

                          This is the general upgrade for gorges. It makes them more effective throughout the game.


                          Sensory:

                          Chamber-

                          This is in my opinion the most useful of the chambers, so long as you have the res to build them. They allow you to cloak structures, catching many a marine offguard when OCs appear in front of them. They allow you to stealth drop a hive. They significantly help in defending a hive, both by thier scent of fear net, and by allowing skulks that have just spawned to cloak to safety or attack. And most importantly, they ruin MT!!! Even if you don't have a complete sensory net in place, by strategically placing SCs on the map, you can make it very difficult for the marines to use MT. And ask any real world commander, winning the recon war more often than not determines who wins the battle. But like movement chambers, only get SC if you are going to push quickly to get a second hive up.


                          Focus-

                          I'd recommend that skulks get focus only if a) the marines don't have armor yet b) the player is good enough to stay alive long enough to get in the extra hit or two needed once the marines get armor. Once the marines get armor, the reduction in attack speed makes this ability very skill dependent.

                          Lerks, really shouldn't get this after the marines get armor. Though I wouldn't recommend it in any case, becuase lerks shouldn't really be getting that close to marines.

                          Focus Fade, a statement every NS player quickly learns. They can be very effective by increasing the damage of the "hit" in hit and run fades.

                          For some reason, not many people notice the power offered by a focused onos. This can make a good onos player into something truly dangerous.

                          If your going to battle gorge, get this. But you'll need to learn to shoot accurately though.


                          Cloaking-

                          Early in the game, cloaked skulks can be very dangerous, the problem is, that MT completely negates it later on.

                          Lerks can use this, but it essentially turns them into weird skulks. It's generally not recommended for lerks, becuase they move too fast for it to take effect.

                          A fade can use this to great effect early in the game, but again, it is quickly negated by MT.

                          A cloaked onos should be deployed almost like a trap. Wait in a high traffic area, and when a marine or group of them go by, eat the first one, then kill off the stragglers.

                          Cloaking is very useful in keeping gorges alive early in the game. Again, MT negates it later on.


                          Scent of fear-

                          This is the upgrade to get as a skulk later on. It allows you to server as a better sentry. And it evens the playing field against MT.

                          This is the best sensory upgrade for a lerk. Combined with a lerks natural speed, it allows a lerk to quickly scout the map, lay hit and run ambushes, and when running away it lets you avoid running into another group of marines. In a large game, I'd recommend you have someone play a dedicated lerk with this upgrade to scout the map and spy on what the marines are doing. It can greatly increase the effectiveness of the whole team.

                          This is a good upgrade for hit and run fades, because it allows you to wait in vents and other out of sight places, then pop out when the marines walk by. It also is very useful in hunting down stray solo marines.

                          The big advantage of getting this as an onos is it allows you to judge whether or not there are too many marines to handle. Used appropriatly, you'll be able to easily avoid getting into those lethal fights against 4 or more marines.

                          Throughout the game, this is a useful ability for gorges, becuase it allows you to see the marines coming ahead of time, giving you a nice big head start before running away, or laying a trap.


                          In case you can't tell, I've spent some time analysing the pros and cons and uses of the different chambers and upgrades, so what I meant to be a quick post ended up turning into a short essay. So sorry for making you read all that. I'll try to post shorter things in the future.
                          Last edited by Card AKA Karrd; 03-21-2005, 02:07 AM.
                          "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                            With good,organized teamplay any pre-planed chamber order will work.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 3.0 Upgrades

                              I've seen worse first posts. :)

                              Welcome!
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X