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Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

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  • Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

    I've been thinking about this, and thought I'd share it...


    Ok, so you're rushing a hive. The generally accepted rules for this say for everyone to run in and unload on the hive, or maybe for a few to guard that others as they hit the hive. Common wisdom and experience (at least on the TG server) teaches, that in a rush where there is a second hive already up, you'll soon be pushed back, so you need to do your damage fast. I'm sure most of us can agree on that. And in most cases I agree with that.

    Here's the part where I want to start deviating from the established plan. Instead of having priorities being: hive, OCs, kharaa, chambers, RT I say we significantly rearrange this to: Chambers, OCs, RT, Hive, Kharaa.

    Here's my reasoning: (At them moment this applys, I expect that implementing this will soon invalidate it though as players learn to counter it)

    This is a rush, so the idea is to do as much damage as fast as possible. Now, killing the hive does alot of damage to the other team, but only if you kill the hive. Damaging it doesn't gain you anything. Let's use Res as the judge for damage and assume the kharaa get about 10 kills in a rush.

    Example one-
    So you rush in and kill 1 chamber (at this time there is almost always at least one chamber in the hive) and one RT before everyone loses. Counting the loss of res from the node until it is rebuilt you've succeeded in doing 10+20to30(depending on how long it takes to rebuild)-20RFK=10to30res. In this case I'd say the best way to decide on what to hit would be how quickly the other team will probably get the RT back up. If they are hurting for res then the node and chamber is more important than the hive, becuase loss of a hive (without the loss of upgrades) does not hurt the other team as much as losing structures they won't be able to soon replace.

    Example two-
    You rush a hive that has no RT, but has 2 chambers in it. If you hit the chambers, you're more or less only breaking even. If you hit the hive (and kill it) you gain 20res. So, in this case, it looks like you should hit the hive.

    Example three-
    You rush a hive with 2 chambers and an RT. Even if the kharaa were to get the RT rebuilt quickly, you'd be doing as much as killing the hive, and it will take you much less time, so here, you definitely want to hit the structures first.

    Example four-
    3 chamber hive, no RT. Here, res isn't the issue so much as do they have chambers elsewhere? If they don't have chambers elsewhere, then despite the fact that you'd be losing 10 res by not killing the hive, you should hit the chambers: reason, that difference will almost certainly be made up by the sudden decrease in kharaa abilities.

    It's getting late, so I'll end this for now, I'm sure everyone get's the point: In many (if not most) cases, it's actually better to rush the chambers and RT than to hit the hive. One major factor I didn't discuss though is the presence or absence of lurks and onos. I'll go into that later if nobody feels like posting an analysis of it before then.
    "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

  • #2
    Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

    The most important thing to consider when attacking a hive room and deciding what to kill is: Amount of alien Rts or how many Rt they have had at one point. If the aliens have lots of res you need to kill the hive, chambers are RTs can be easily replaced once aliens get a good res flow(3 rt or more) while a hive always takes 3 min to build. If you know the aliens have bad res flow(2 rt or less) hitting rts and chambers might be a good option.

    One thing to note: Shottys/GL kill structures, HMGs shoot the aliens, if you have no HMG the best shots should cover. LMG can be used to cover too. Another good way to kill a hive is with 2 GLs have the GLs shoot the hive and everyone else cover, this works best when the aliens have many lifeforms, it works best on open hive rooms where the GLs can hit the hive from far away.

    Another thing is if have less than 4 marines in a hive I would almost always tell them to go for chambers or RT mostly due to the fact it takes 3 marines a while to kill a hive and you could end up killing nothing.

    LazyEye

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    • #3
      Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

      Its up to the comm, and what he/she see's fit at the current time... If theres 3 hives up, and all the chambers are up, then attacking chambers wouldnt do much damage... Its a on hands question type of thing.

      IMO that is.
      Oyee

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      • #4
        Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

        We know its up to the comm, we are just giving cretin situations with logical choices. Every comm on TG should read threads like this; a choice based solely on the fact of "I'm the comm and you are not" is stupid.

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        • #5
          Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

          Well put lazyeye.
          "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Sir Isaac Newton

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

            Good stuff!

            I'd just like to add that two lmg clips and a few pistol shots kill a chamber - a ninja marine can take out a chamber by himself if he's undisturbed for a bit.

            So small hive rushes (3 guys) to destroy chambers and such may be a really good idea! If they do that while the other 3 guys go set up a pg at another hive... (I'm just speculating here)

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            • #7
              Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

              I agree; it completely depends on the situation.

              As a commander, I really don't like dead marines. If one were to keep track, one would notice a trend towards me sieging hives. I prefer a methodical, relaxed, and overpowered destruction of the opponent.

              This whole business of beaconing, ordering the team to unload on the hive, and then repeating until their the PG or the hive is down doesn't suit my style. I prefer, that if I'm taking a hive by brute force, that marines take a few seconds to clear the doorways for skulks, and practice covering. I hate watching marines jump over the rail into the sub-space hive on ns_veil. We'll be kissing that shotgun goodbye shortly.

              Sure. Kill chambers if you don't think they can be replaced easily (and they have no backups), but remember that if the PG goes down and all you have to show for it is some dead chambers, you've lost critical time. As for OCs, well you're entitled to your opinion.. but i'll drop a nanite anvil on a marine if I catch him shootin an OC during a hive rush.

              The main thing that really motivates me to rush a hive is bile bomb. I mean seriously, 10 seconds can win or lose a game with that stuff. And if bile bomb is flying, you might just hear me screaming SHOOT THE HIVE ONLY!" but probably not :D.

              As lazyeye pointed out, we've all been in cretin situations. :D


              "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

              "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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              • #8
                Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                Shooting the hive has the added bonus of scaring away otherwise biling gorges and making them heal!

                I think something greatly overlooked in this thread is the type of chamber you are killing.

                If it's SCs, they probably have more than three, and no more than two in the hive. The only reason to kill it would be if you think you are gaining an advantage taking your marines off of SoF and not letting the aliens cloak in there (with scan that should be irrellevent). I would probably only target the SCs if the hive they originated from has been destroyed, and they cannot be replaced. Even then, cloaking works just about as well with one sc as it does with three, sensory probably functions better than any other chamber when you only have one, so I would put it at a low priority.

                If it's DCs, the number might make a difference. You may run into more trouble killing them than you expected. You you happen to know there are not DCs at any other hive, it might be worth taking them down, and if the hive you are attacking hasn't been completed yet it might be worth it. In a rush you should be able to overpower the healing effect of the DCs, I would probably kill them last of anything except in those cases.

                If it's MCs, there could be only one, or as many as three depending on the hive. If there are three, then taking them out will probably make thier movement abilities less useful. Regardless of how many there are, gorges may be using it for adren (provided by proximity to the chamber) to heal or bile. And if you do manage to get the hive down, any fleeing life forms may try to use them to escape. Of any chamber to kill, this is the one. It has the most relevence in the rush scenario, and could potentially leave aliens trapped at the hive while you are beaconing and preparing for a second rush.

                I would like to see a rush where the priority is MCs, Gorges, Hive (rt can be slipped anywhere in there depending on the situation). The healing is not my main concern with the gorges, if you kill the gorges they will probably not replace any structure in that hive until the rush is over. It also sets them back the same amount of res as killing a chamber, and removes an alien for the gestate time of a gorge (you just know people will be shouting "Why is no one healing the hive!?")

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                  something to consider next time you rush a hive. If the aliens have a couple fades or lerks you could maybe instruct your team to hit the hive once, wait for the lifeforms to come over and take them out ignoring the hive. The loss of 2 fades and a lerk can hurt more than the hive dying. There are many times the hive would have gone down but didn't cause the fade killed us all that if we had focused fade first we could have killed the hive at our leisure after it was dead.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                    Originally posted by nine hells
                    something to consider next time you rush a hive. If the aliens have a couple fades or lerks you could maybe instruct your team to hit the hive once, wait for the lifeforms to come over and take them out ignoring the hive. The loss of 2 fades and a lerk can hurt more than the hive dying. There are many times the hive would have gone down but didn't cause the fade killed us all that if we had focused fade first we could have killed the hive at our leisure after it was dead.
                    I like this idea if the team is coordinated and has the equipment to pull it off. Taking out thier higher life forms will give you a pretty decent advantage if you have kept thier rt count low. The only problem I see, is in many cases the kharaa can push back the marines. You are on thier turf, and they do get some nifty bonuses despite the fact that they are a bit less able to flee. Choosing the right hive to do this at would be vital.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                      Talking about killing gorges, I don't think GLs are used enough in taking down a hive. When you have 2-3 gorges on TOP of the hive. When you have that lerk sitting up there using Umbra. It's GL time.

                      Also, I don't want to see "Here's some SGs, I'll give you ammo, hit the phase" rushes. I never get any ammo (It usualy ends up with the first 2 guys) and get stuck with an empty shotty. All this and it's usualy a hive that's hard to SG rush......
                      The alien fails because it cannot embrace the Emperor.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                        That entirely depends on the comm. Some are quite thorough in keeping the troops supplied with meds and bullets during a rush. Others (like myself, which is why I don't comm) don't keep up and get behind the curve.

                        If Wyz or a couple others say "I'll give you ammo," I'm taking it to the bank with unwavering faith.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                          I have, and I'm sure alot of us have been in situations where the ammunition promised never makes it to us. It can be hard as a commander to make sure each one of your marines gets ammo. I rarely get on my marines cases about armory humping when I am commanding because I am not the best at it, but there are some things I would suggest about ammo.

                          If you are the commander...

                          Don't drop all the ammo in one place, spread it out with no more than 3 in one pile (two or one is more like it) the last thing you need is one person with 40 shells and 4 people with none.

                          Drop it anywhere they can walk into it with ease before they reach a fight. On the other side of the phase between the phase and thier destination you might not have a whole lot of time/space. This is even more important with shotguns, reloading occurs much more frequently and you want to make sure your marines get thier first pack before they fire more than a couple shots.

                          Drop the ammo before they even get there. Unless you need to surprise the aliens, why not start dropping ammo packs while the phase gate is building/obs is beaconing/people are grabbing shotguns. It will save you the trouble later if you need to turn your attention elsewhere, or focus more on specific marines.

                          If you are a player...

                          Avoid taking more than a few ammo packs, if this means slowing down to walk around an ammo pack, it's probably for the best. Try to determine how much ammo is being dropped, and don't take more than you expect other people to get. If you live that long you can take ammo from your teammates when they die.

                          Sometimes it is worth giving the armory a quick tap if you know this com is going to have a little trouble giving ammo. If you have a shotgun, just haveing the extra 4 shells gives your com more time to get ammo out. I don't recommend takeing more than the 1/2 clip the armory gives you from one use. The first one comes out instantly and you can usually get it on the way to the phase, beyond that you are taking too much time and holding up the team.

                          If all else fails, call for ammo. Call once, spamming messages to the com during a rush is asking for trouble. Try to make the best of what you have, and remember you do have that pistol and knife on you too.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                            What really determines how much ammo you need is what you plan to do once you get there. There's basically 2 scenarios here--

                            1) The marines plan to ignore the aliens and blast the hive as fast as possible, hopefully killing it before the aliens can even respond. In this scenario, no one should touch the armory (except maybe for that 1st free 1/2 clip), because every second counts in whether that hive goes down or not, and it really doesn't take all that much ammo to do it if there's no umbra or healing. It takes about 5 1/2 lvl0 shotty clips to kill a hive. Assuming 5 marines with lvl1 shotties, if everyone can unload their entire first clip into the hive without dying, you shouldn't even NEED to reload--if its not dead yet, its because someone missed, died, or aimed at a skulk. And at that point you can probably finish it off with a pistol clip.

                            2) The marines plan to stay awhile (awhile being defined as anything longer than 10 seconds) to allow them to do anything other than hive blasting--whether thats aiming at aliens first, or building seiges, or whatever. In this scenario, they are going to need to reload. Also, speed is not quite as critical. So as long as the phase gate isnt in immediate danger, go ahead and let them hit the armory first.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

                              I cant say i agree with your order of killing things. The order should be: kharaa, OCs, then hive/chambers/RT depending on your strat. Honestly just shooting the hive while there is a room full of aliens muching on your team just doesnt work. Your first objective during a hive rush should be staying alive.

                              "As the marines walk in you're going to want to hit each marine with one ammo pack. Good marines wont hit the armory on their way through and you should be a good enough comm that they don't have to call for it. Make sure you remind your marines that lifeforms are to be targeted first. They do not want to hit the hive unless they are putting damage in a higher lifeform. After the skulks and gorge are dead, and the fade has been either killed, or rendered useless through damage, you're going to tell your marines to take a moment to reload and weld. Then you want to hit the hive once, and kill the one or two skulks bound to come through, then finally unload on the hive" - Routerbox

                              I couldnt agree more. Rushing into a built hive to kill it should not be done, it takes alot of coordination, teamwork, skill and practice to be sucessfull. If you are rushing in to kill chambers and RTs your best weapon is a jetpack. You will want to hit the skulks first and have one guy keep the fade happy while the rest take down the chambers. Skulks are jetpack killing monsters. Only shoot the lerk if you think you have a perfect shot and can kill it in one shot. Killing the OCs before your designated target is also smart, jetpacks are near impossible to med. Unless the aliens have no fade, rushing into a hive on foot to kill the chambers will probably not be successfull.

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