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  • Police Brutality in America...video...

    I know stats can be used to support or show one sided views, but this is still a very intresting video full of stats about police burtality in America now-a-days. It may not be 100% accurate as I'm sure some of you can't wait to point out, but the stats are pretty close to what I've read and seen in studies and other resources. I was kinda shocked about the comparasions to be murdered or raped... Ouch.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRd5oucG114

    Magnum |TG-18th|


    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.


  • #2
    Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

    Damn! You beat me to it! Was going to post this as well! :P

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    • #3
      Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

      ya, probally should of put it in the WCE sub-forum thou... oh well. ;)
      Magnum |TG-18th|


      We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

        I'll read through it but the obvious question for me is how you feel as an LEO. How about your colleagues. I think it's a difficult thing to monday morning quaterback but it's hard not to on some of these cases that have been so publicized. The latest one I saw was about a man from India visiting his son. He was out walking the neighborhood at night and was stopped for questioning. He was terrified, tried to back away from the officers, didn't speak a lick of English. The interrogating officer suddenly swept out the man's feet out and pushed him backwards at the same time. His head and neck struck the pavement and he was injured so bad he is now paralyzed. The officer, I believe, is under indictment but that almost doesn't matter. The public sees this as a commonplace occurrence and I fear that the law enforcement community sees a case like this, shrugs their shoulders and says "...sometimes bad **** happens...". He's under indictment so of course there is recourse on this one but there are other incidents that have gone by the boards I'm sure. It this kind of over zealous action coupled with the "sometimes bad **** happens" attitude that is making the general public so very wary of law enforcement in general.

        Listen...the last thing i want to do is indict a whole profession. Just like every vocation there are people who are good at their jobs and others maybe not as much. Unfortunately the consequences of something going awry are much more significant and so garner that much more attention.Quite warranted imho.
        Last edited by Grunt 70; 02-18-2015, 11:02 AM.
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        |TG-1st|Grunt
        ARMA Admin (retired)
        Pathfinder-Spartan 5

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        • #5
          Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

          The scale of comparison is useful if you want to downplay some more obvious facts, the militarization of civil policing, the systemic failure to process rape kits, race relations and racial representation within the force, the general lack of accountability at the local level, the failure to indict police for crimes, and numerous other issues.

          The above is little more than institutional propaganda -- by its very existence a sign of a deeper problem.

          There is probably a correlation between the external violence of empires and internal means for violent control of indigenous (local) citizens. Furthermore, as internal levels of economic inequality reach historic levels we see increased use of surveillance, sanctioned violent policing and the threat of unwarranted arrest as measure for minimizing civil unrest.

          The recent move in both the Canada and the USA to officially label environmental activism as a form of terrorism is very telling in this regard.
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          • #6
            Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

            Originally posted by E-Male View Post
            The scale of comparison is useful if you want to downplay some more obvious facts, the militarization of civil policing, the systemic failure to process rape kits, race relations and racial representation within the force, the general lack of accountability at the local level, the failure to indict police for crimes, and numerous other issues.
            The stats referred to in the above presentation come mostly from the FBI's statistics on Law Enforcement. So as Magnum was pointing out, it may not be exact to the single incident, but its pretty close. That said, exactly what militarizing of civil policing are you referring to? I work in one of largest law enforcement agencies in the country, and I see police officers hitting the streets on a daily basis still wearing a time honored uniform with a duty belt containing a handgun, handcuffs, magazine pouch, taser, and baton. Out of a department which fields over 5000 officers, less than 100 are assigned to Tact Ops where they have additional equipment such as long guns and a more military looking field uniform. So how exactly is that militarization? The average officer in this country faces a potential threat on a daily basis that is heavier armed and equipped, and who also has the element of surprise as they know when they are going to strike. Look back at the Bank Robbery in California where the Officers where ill equipped to deal with heavily armored men using fully automatic assault rifles. The term of militarization is just another created narrative by the media to work the public up and sell a story.

            Also, where do you get your facts on the systemic failure to process rape kits? First, that has nothing to do with the average law enforcement officer, and to add that to the list implies it is connected to all of law enforcement. Most departments, especially smaller ones, sub out to a civilian run lab service to handle such things.

            Race relations? As a Patrol Supervisor, I have worked in all segments of my cities racially divided areas. And I can say first hand that the very large majority of officers maintain professionalism in serving the citizens of those areas regardless of race. I have seen officers come out of their own pockets to feed a hungry family. I know of an officer who paid a citizens light bill to get their service turned back on. Again, the race-baiters on both sides will blow the situation out of proportion and the media is right there to sell the narrative without regard to fact checking.

            General lack of accountability? Can you explain? I have also served my department as an Internal Affairs Sergeant and I can tell you there is a very specific record of accountability. My investigations into non-criminal activity alleged of Officer's has resulted in severe discipline which has included any where from 1 to 30 days off with no pay. Those found guilty in criminal allegations, loss of job and turned over to the District Attorney's office for charges. Did you know that a citizen convicted of the same lesser offense crime that an Officer is convicted of just usually gets a fine or short jail sentence in a county jail, where and Officer is terminated? So again, I would be interested to hear systemic examples of a lack of accountability.

            The failure to indict officers for crimes? First, there must be enough evidence to prove the Officer's actions were criminal. To shoot and kill someone is a crime, but officers, just as citizens, are exempt from prosecution when the Supreme Courts ruling on use of force is upheld. (Tenn. vs Garner & Graham vs Connor) Even in instances of criminal activity such as official oppression, the evidence must support the indictment. Again, public opinion of such cases are formed by media and local community activism, who both have their own "proven" agenda to push.

            The common denominator of the above examples is an unrestricted media who is not held accountable for their fragmented and fact-less reporting that whips a community into a frenzy who then gets even more outraged when the courts, who see the evidence of the investigation returns a no-bill decision. Ferguson is a great example of that.

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            • #7
              Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

              Well, all I can say is read the academic literature on policing.

              If you are denying that there is significant and systemic issues with policing in the areas I noted then you are ill-informed of the facts of matter which go beyond your own personal experience.
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              • #8
                Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                Yes, because living a situation day to day blinds you to the facts that "academic" literature purports with conjecture.

                Lets see those facts. If you are going to take the time to insult my daily experience in a field I not only work within, but perform the duties of a supervisor who investigates, trains, and contributes to the formation of new polices, then be prepared to back that up with facts of your own.

                President Lincoln once said, "Never believe everything you read on the internet". More insightful words have never been more true.

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                • #9
                  Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                  Originally posted by Reinhold View Post
                  Yes, because living a situation day to day blinds you to the facts that "academic" literature purports with conjecture.

                  Lets see those facts. If you are going to take the time to insult my daily experience in a field I not only work within, but perform the duties of a supervisor who investigates, trains, and contributes to the formation of new polices, then be prepared to back that up with facts of your own.
                  Likewise, it could be said that your dismissal of almost every main issue currently discussed in the public sphere and among social scientists is a remarkable insult to those who have suffered the brunt of police brutality, a biased justice system, systemic racism, the commercialization of prisons, unparalleled levels of incarceration within the global community, and so forth.

                  The most stunning fact before us is your dismissal of what amounts to a exceedingly obvious and well documented set of issues -- debated, yes, denied by some, of course, but hardly so easily swept under the rug as you suggest.

                  If you really do care to engage in a science-based discussion that goes beyond the claims of personal experience (for my own personal experience would confirm yours -- but I do not rely on my own personal experience to arrive at large-scale sociological conclusions regarding nation-states) join me in a reading of Karaska's Militarization and Policing—Its Relevance to 21st Century Police and let us address your lack of awareness concerning the militarization of civilian policing.


                  A poignant example of this is the recent Hurricane Katrina catastrophe in the United States. The government’s response to this disaster was far different than has been the norm for the past 50 years. Symbolic of the decline of the social welfare paradigm, and the ascendance
                  of a militarized, governance model that revolves around crime and security, the central focus of the Department of Homeland Security (and its newly subsumed Federal Emergency Management Agency) was not humanitarian relief, but instead a massive security operation
                  that included police paramilitary squads, Blackwater-incorporated private soldiers, and the US National Guard. By all accounts, the fixation on crime and insecurity and the militarized deployment delayed and complicated the humanitarian relief effort considerably.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                    Originally posted by Grunt 70 View Post
                    I'll read through it but the obvious question for me is how you feel as an LEO. How about your colleagues. I think it's a difficult thing to monday morning quaterback but it's hard not to on some of these cases that have been so publicized. The latest one I saw was about a man from India visiting his son. He was out walking the neighborhood at night and was stopped for questioning. He was terrified, tried to back away from the officers, didn't speak a lick of English. The interrogating officer suddenly swept out the man's feet out and pushed him backwards at the same time. His head and neck struck the pavement and he was injured so bad he is now paralyzed. The officer, I believe, is under indictment but that almost doesn't matter. The public sees this as a commonplace occurrence and I fear that the law enforcement community sees a case like this, shrugs their shoulders and says "...sometimes bad **** happens...". He's under indictment so of course there is recourse on this one but there are other incidents that have gone by the boards I'm sure. It this kind of over zealous action coupled with the "sometimes bad **** happens" attitude that is making the general public so very wary of law enforcement in general.

                    Listen...the last thing i want to do is indict a whole profession. Just like every vocation there are people who are good at their jobs and others maybe not as much. Unfortunately the consequences of something going awry are much more significant and so garner that much more attention.Quite warranted imho.
                    That's a horrible story, Grunt. What I took away from the video that Magnum posted wasn't that some or all LEOs do bad things, perform their jobs poorly, or abuse their power, but that the exceedingly large majority are doing their jobs well and the problem itself is actually quite minuscule in the grand scheme of things. That doesn't mean the issues raised are NOT a problem, but it does help put things in perspective.

                    Originally posted by Reinhold View Post
                    Yes, because living a situation day to day blinds you to the facts that "academic" literature purports with conjecture.
                    Come on.. You should know that academics know best. :) Certainly they have more valuable insight into your job than you do! It's not worth the debate unless you have a TON of time on your hands. And remember, nothing you've seen, done or experienced counts unless it's been validated by our lovely pedagogical system.

                    If I had my way, every working-class individual would get a month off and have their positions temporarily replaced by academics and see how things go. :)

                    I know your job is tough. I know that you, above all people, know the risk of walking up to a vehicle in the course of your duties and taking the risk that the driver is armed and just itching to pull the trigger. The fact that you continue to do it on a daily basis earns you GREAT respect from me. I'm not sure I'd have the courage to do the same.

                    DISCLAIMER: I do not have a college degree, so for many people I might as well be an uneducated pond sucker. I also don't believe that "education" requires to you fork over a ton of money to for-profit enterprises. You can go to school to get schooling; education, IMO, is something ENTIRELY different.
                    Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                      Yes YES YES.

                      Let us throw science out the window as personal opinion and experience triumphs over those people with their 50 cents words and book learnin.

                      But above all else, don't look further than your own personal experience least you see something scary.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                        Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                        Yes YES YES.

                        Let us throw science out the window as personal opinion and experience triumphs over those people with their 50 cents words and book learnin.

                        But above all else, don't look further than your own personal experience least you see something scary.
                        I joined you in your reading of http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...6650000000.pdf before I replied, BTW.

                        I found it to be EXTREMELY lacking in context, and without much thought into the changing nature of what our Police are expected to do in terms of first-response military defense against foreign actors, among many other things. It's pretty much EXACTLY what I expected it to be.

                        Here's the thing; I don't think the issues we have in law enforcement should be ignored, or accepted. I also think that it's a VERY dangerous thing to pull these events out of context and then blow them out of proportion. So no, let's not throw science out the window, let's also realize that real-world experience is also QUITE valuable. I base a lot of qualitative risk models on that very experience.

                        I've learned a lot from books, or "book learnin'" as you say. I just don't need to pay someone $30k a year to tell me what books to read. I also don't need to be socially brainwashed into "groupthink" by required courses at an institution in order to learn mechanical or electrical engineering. Academics are NOT the gatekeepers of education.
                        Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                          Everyone tends to forget the militarisation of the populace.

                          FYI, no offense intended, academic literature is just that, literature, the writings of academics subject to every possible bias and influence you can imagine, as you well know. Your proximity to that form of material appears to be somewhat blinding you to it's value. Whilst the 'anecdotal' experiences of two LEO's may appear to be inherently biased to you, dependent on your predisposition (as one shouldn't assume bias thus negating the value of the witness), one should try to objectively assess, compare and contrast those experiences with others. Little point in garnering such opinions otherwise. Conversely if such experience is so easily labelled as dismissive, what is 'academic literature' based on, who's experience are those writings drawn from?

                          Bless you E-Male, I enjoy your posts however they occasionally have the tang of a sensationalist 'click bait' writer, understandable in a page view 'Social Media' society, excusable, not so much.

                          My homespun view, we get the Policing we deserve in a hideous karmic way. I truly believe the vast majority of LEO's both in the US and in my home country risk their lives each day to protect us, in good faith, for relatively meagre pay. I also accept that they are to some degree representative of the society from whence they came, good and bad. I also suspect there must be a terrible, cruel jadedness that most of these people have to fight every day as they are faced by a society of entitled, lazy, spiteful, dumb malcontents by and large who exhibit a shocking, almost unnatural level of selfish cruelty to their fellow man.

                          Do bad apples make their way into the system? Absolutely. Do those bad apples disproportionately affect the reputation of said institutions and their relations with the public? Do these bad apples mostly offend, demoralise and jeopardise the lives of those good men and women who do their job with pride, I think so.

                          There are most likely instances of Police misconduct etc (I won't speak to the Justice system, that's a whole other hot mess and isn't the fault of average LEO). There is also the minor issue that LEO's are often dealing with the bottom of the pile. Real filth. The sort of person that files a lawsuit because he got hurt when being arrested for committing a heinous crime and our Society allows them to do that. We set our Law Enforcement up to play hopskotch blindfold in a minefield when the other team is cheating and then we hang them out to dry if they can't magically disarm some toad who's waving a gun at people.

                          I rarely entertain political labels as I find them simplistic and I long ago extricated myself from the now worthless charade that is Western politics. However the trend for what I can only assume the vernacular term is Liberals hammering Law Enforcement in some Kaftan wearing tirade against the Man is tiresome, childish, naive and petulant. Let me ask you this, with a thin blue line stretched as it is, what would you have in it's place. Not some fantasy world where everyone is nice. The real world, with real people, with flaws etc and real criminals. What would you suggest?

                          Some environmental activism does indeed stray into the area of terrorism, if you don't believe that you don't read the right 'source' material or you don't read a balanced diet of it. Why is that the case? Often because some, a minority, targets areas/locations pose a widespread threat to the local populace, oil refineries, toxic waste disposal etc. There have been occasions of well intentioned movements being infiltrated and agitated by genuine terrorist threats because the subject of their ire is of strategic value. Still don't believe me, wargame it yourself, what would you do?

                          Police becoming militarised, are you surprised? Terrorism is now a threat to US and Canadian home soil. Fortunately, in some ways, for my friends on both sides of that border this is a relatively new thing. However it is a reality. So not only do you have an armed populace you also have LEO's being the first line of response to what could potentially be a terrorist event with the potential for mass casualties. This is the new reality of life in the US and Canada, something many of us in Europe have lived with for years despite not having armed police as standard in many countries. If you don't understand how this fundamentally alters the relationship between such an organisation and the populace it is tasked to both serve and protect, I don't know what to say.

                          I personally abhor the abuse of position or power that Law Enforcement misconduct entails, not only from the point of view of the victim (and they aren't all genuine) but from the perspective of the officers that risk their lives in good faith. I also shake my head at the increased risk all officers face as the result of every media circus and inherent risk to us all a breakdown in trust between both parties entails.

                          One thing that has always disappointed me about academic studies is how they are so willing to dismiss witness testimony that doesn't support the conclusions they have already arrived at, as if, "well it's gone to print now, that's enough data and what I have supports my theory so I'm good". Data is data, whether you agree with it or not.


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                          • #14
                            Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                            E-Male, it's often been said to be careful pointing a finger at others as there are 3 fingers pointing back at your when you do so. I not only dismissed your points made in the above post, I countered them with the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experience. In other words, the very definition of Science. You can read all the studies you want to read, but until you DO as opposed to READ, your opinion to me is invalid.

                            You bring up Peter Kraska, a noted member of the academia. In the article you reference, he brings up Katrina. Funny thing is, I didn't see him there. I didn't see him soaked to the bone, tired and hungry, going from house to house searching for survivors and unfortunately finding more dead than living. I didn't see him sobbing from exhaustion unable to check in with his family who had evacuated from the city, unable to confirm they made it out ok, or to let them know he was ok. I didn't see him protecting the businesses that were completely demolished not by the fury of the storm, but by the citizens of the community looting what they could carry. I didn't see him deal with the citizen on citizen violence as people were shot dead in the streets the victims not of the storm, but of the dregs of society who took advantage of a city in turmoil. For you see E-male, myself, along with Officers from dozen's of agencies from as far a way as Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Mississippi, made our way to New Orleans in the days immediately after the storm to assist a city in need.

                            I didn't need to read an account of someone who was not there to understand the devastation caused in New Orleans. A lot of brave men and women first responders gave up the comfort of safety and family to spend sleepless days and nights helping others. On the other hand, there were quite a few members of law Enforcement who added to the tragedy by abandoning their official duties and joining in criminal activity such as looting businesses and unfortunately, taking life. As the video in the beginning of this thread details, and as Apo clarified above, the bulk of Law Enforcement across America does honor to the profession, and those that do dishonor to the profession by abandoning the basic principles of Law Enforcement to protect, serve, and reduce fear in the communities they work for are a very small percentage of the whole.

                            To use a word like "Systemic" is to say that the problems caused by the few are "system wide" having an influence within the profession as a whole. This is the point I disagree with. I have laughed, cried, and bled with some of the finest people I have ever met in my life, who selflessly put their lives in harms way to make sure you sleep safely at night. That number far outweighs those who do not. Period.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Police Brutality in America...video...

                              Well, at least it is only in one direction;

                              "these people have to fight every day as they are faced by a society of entitled, lazy, spiteful, dumb malcontents by and large who exhibit a shocking, almost unnatural level of selfish cruelty to their fellow man"

                              The problem is clearly on the other side of the badge, or so it would seem. As to terrorism, many threats kill more than terrorists, and as Noam Chomsky notes, the USA is the "leading terrorist state" so again we encounter the issue of exactly who is engaged in UNaccountable and disproportionate violence. These issues are far less clear than is portrayed in the above comments.

                              Yes, of course some environmentalists do evil deeds but that is not the issue here. Read the criticisms of the recent legislative moves in both the USA and Canada -- unaccountable policing powers delivered to security agencies. An obvious expansion of the militarization of civil society and the strong state.

                              The Enlightenment and the scientific revolution are based on a simple principle -- individual claims are insufficient in and of themselves. I have not presented academic production of knowledge as monolithic and without controversy. Apophis's straw man above is an extraordinary attack on the only academic in this thread -- perhaps not meant to be directed at my person but nonetheless subject to interrogation as an attack based on extraordinary overstatements:

                              "academics know best"

                              "nothing you've seen, done or experienced counts unless it's been validated by our lovely pedagogical system"

                              "I do not have a college degree, so for many people I might as well be an uneducated pond sucker"

                              Most scholars would, I suspect, find such claims to be a very poor reflection of the current understanding of epistemology and the scientific methodology(s).

                              Apophis, at what point did I argue that you "need to pay someone $30k a year to tell me what books to read."

                              This is a ridiculous overstatement of my position and does little to forward a congenial discussion of the matter before us.

                              Furthermore, the characterization of scientific knowledge as a form of "socially brainwashed . . . "groupthink"" promulgated by "required courses at an institution" is what -- an attack on my profession? Or merely an indirect attack on my person? At what point have I ever claimed that "academics are . . . the gatekeepers of education"?

                              All I have suggested above is axiomatic within science and academia -- personal opinion and personal experience, in and of themselves, is insufficient as a foundation for interrogating social reality. No one is claiming that opinion and experience is not irrelevant or lacking in utility and merit. But opinion and experience are not the foundation for scholarly argument. I am not interested in trading in mere opinions on this matter -- there is more to be known about the issue than your or my experience. Please note that at the outset I clearly state that MY experience of policing confirms Reinhold's opinions, but that is not the end of the matter for me.

                              My point stands: there is a substantial body of literature, academic and otherwise, that gives rise to significant reservations regarding the claims made by the video and Reinhold. Clearly, those present here would reject this vast body or personal and academic accounts as irrelevant or incorrect. The irony of your stand on opinion and experience is that it fails to account for the considerable body of opinion and experience that contradicts the noble claims made above.
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