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  • Aerodynamics

    I know diddly-squat about but I'm having trouble understand my discussion here over at Ubi Lock On forums

    http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?a=...06&m=294102615

    Can someone take a look and read the posts?

    Thx :)
    Jex.


  • #2
    Re: Aerodynamics

    I've never played, so I cant talk from a game sense.

    But in a real world sense what you are saying would be true. IMO

    You worded it best when you talked about the tennis ball. If I am facing the wind and I throw the ball, if the wind is stong enough, it would even come back to me. If my back was to the win then the ball would fly twice as far.

    I dont get why they keep talking about the ground and the speed relative to it. The ground has nothing to do with it. Neither does the speed of the planes. For that matter the question doesnt even need to planes in it.



    ACU Web| | |

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    • #3
      Re: Aerodynamics

      I understand this. Think of the old story about how Einstein came up with the idea of Relativity. A guy bounces a ball on a moving train. To him, the ball moves up and down, but to an observer on the ground, "not moving" (relative to the ground, not the train), the ball traces an arc.

      So if two planes are flying due North and there's a strong wind from the East, relative to an observer on the ground both planes are affected by the wind because it will tend to push them both West. One pilot observing the other plane will see no effect because the wind is affecting each in the exact same way: they will remain directly one in front of the other because each will move West the same amount. If he (or she!) fires a missile at the other plane, wind can be ignored because the exact same force that affects the missile (wind, gravity) applies to its target, and the pilot who fired it. But an observer on the ground may see the missile arc slightly to the West, just as the two planes move slightly to the West.

      Targets on the ground don't move when the wind blows (and if they do, you might want to pass on using a missile to shoot it - it's a rubber decoy!). Unless there's a tail wind the missile's engines must counteract the wind's tendency to move the missile away from the target.


      ***I've read a bit more of this other thread and think I see what's bogging you down. Ok let's take the same two planes flying due north and imagine a headwind coming in from the north. Suppose the planes are 20nm away from each other and moving at the same speed. Relative to a person on the ground, they are flying at 400 knots, but one pilot looking at the other's plane will see that the other plane isn't moving. A missle fired from one plane to the other must travel 20 NM to hit a motionless target.

      Now turn the wind around. And observer on the ground will look up and say that the planes are travelling at 450 knots, but each pilot will still see that the other plane isn't moving. They are both still travelling at the exact same speed through the air, and if one fires a missle at the other, that missle will still have to fly 20 NM.

      Ummm....maybe the easiest way to think of this is to consider that to the pilots and the missile, the wind is pushing the GROUND in one direction or the other but has no impact on their relative positions.
      Last edited by leejo; 07-02-2004, 11:47 AM.

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      • #4
        Re: Aerodynamics

        I hate to say it, but their responses, especially the bus analogy, seems very clear to me.

        *DISCLAIMER* I am low on the science in this, but feel I have a working grasp of common sense ;) so I'll try and give this a shot.

        EDIT: I see that a faster, less verbose individual has posted while I was writing this. Glad to see that I'm more or less on the same page. Read on for a wordy analysis of my own :icon16:

        This is a matter of relativity, I think.

        Bus - moving forward East to West
        Person A - walking to back of bus (East)
        Person B - walking to front of bus (West)
        Tennis Ball - back and forth (East & West)
        Observer - stationary on ground outside

        To an observer on the ground watching the bus go by, the two people on board, and the tennis ball would *appear* to cover different ground distances at different 'speeds' *relative to the ground observer.* That is, Person A, when walking to the back of the bus would appear to the observer to be moving slightly slower than the bus. Person B, while walking toward the front of the bus would conversely appear to the observer to be moving slightly faster than the bus. The tennis ball, when thrown, would behave the same way, but even more pronounced.

        On the bus, everything would seem to be equal between the two people. They would feel unaffected by the movement of the bus. But to the outside observer, the ground distances and speeds would be *apparently* different.

        So, back to 'reality'... the airmass the planes and missles are flying in contains them. This whole 'package' is moving relative to the ground... which is irrelevant, except as a matter of observation. Within the air mass, the two planes are closing, as are the missles, all being equally, and to them, unnoticably affected.

        Ok... now I get even more sketchy here, so please forgive if I am way off in my notions. Imagine two planes closing, each at 200mph. Their closing speed would be 400mph. If they fire missles at one another, those would be closing even faster. Now, imagine a 20mph wind, blowing along the same axis the planes and missles are flying along. To an observer on the ground, the plane flying into the wind would appear to have an airspeed of 180mph (powered airspeed minus wind speed), while the plane with the tailwind would appear to be moving 220mph (powered airspeed plus wind speed). Missles would be similarly affected. However, despite what this would look like from the ground, the two planes would still maintain a closing speed of 400mph, and the pilots would not register any difference relative to one another. The firing of missles would therefore appear to them to fly as far and as fast toward their targets as if the wind were still.

        I dunno if this helps any. It's how I understand it. I could be off the deep end




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        • #5
          Re: Aerodynamics

          Thanks guys I think I have it now. I posted my floating airport analogy lol
          Jex.

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          • #6
            Re: Aerodynamics

            Are you trying to shoot the ground with a missle or another plane?



            ACU Web| | |

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            • #7
              Re: Aerodynamics

              plane to plane
              Jex.

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              • #8
                Re: Aerodynamics

                Hmmm. After reading the discussion at the link you gave, plus having a go at it here... I feel the inexorable urge to get a flight sim again :icon20:




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                • #9
                  Re: Aerodynamics

                  I think the main factor that you missed in your arguments is the fact that the wind is not only acting on the missile, but also its target. Yes, technically a missile fired into the wind will go slower compared to the ground(and they were practically screaming at you to stop thinking about ground speed). However, at the same time the target plane is going faster due to the wind. Since the wind has an equal effect on EVERYTHING inside it, they all cancel eachother out just as long as something outside the system(like the ground) isn't being used as the measuring stick.

                  The bus analogy is the simplest one on there. Think of the air as an invisible box that's moving at a set rate(the wind). To everything inside the box, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever how fast the box is moving.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Aerodynamics

                    Imagine that a beaver buys a lottery ticket, and there's a headwind....SIMULTANEOUSLY, a French fur trapper is having an affair in Munich.

                    If you shot a missile at either one, the wind would have no effect. Can't you see?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Aerodynamics

                      I'll give this a crack...

                      Alrighty, first off, in the real world Air travels at a relatively steady rate in GIANT masses (I think) and that when you, in mid air, fire a missile (think the 'tennis ball'), at a target, in mid air, are all being affected by the same mass of air (think the 'Bus').

                      Now it is not impossible that the targets are within two different giant masses of air and that when the missile crosses from one mass to the other, it would change speed in relation to both the source and the target. think of like, umm... the bus origonally being two busses with no walls and both rubbing up against eachother initially, and then one speeding up and turning away, if you throw the ball from your quasi-bus to the other quasi-bus at a time near to when the two masses split, your aim that would have been dead on, would of course be completly off-target due to the difference (we could possibly call this split wind)

                      I'm not sure, but I think its something like turbulance... isnt that when theres alot of differences in wind speed, pressure, etc..? in real life wind can make a difference between two targets, think of crosswinds, or a real good example, what if there is a tornado between the source of the missile and the target, it would be extremely difficult for that missile to go through the tornado without being thrown off course.

                      I'd be very suprised that even though that there is wind, that there would be crosswinds or the such, so in your game i'd be very suprised if there were... this means that what they're saying is right, there's only one bus.
                      RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

                      Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

                      I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

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                      • #12
                        Re: Aerodynamics

                        the missile IS moving at Mach 3. I wouldn't want to be on that bus no matter which direction it's travelling.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Aerodynamics

                          Free... your... mind... there is no bus :icon19:




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                          • #14
                            Re: Aerodynamics

                            I was going to say something like "There is no sp..bus" but I figured it'd be too cheesy... Thanks for confirming that for me =)
                            RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

                            Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

                            I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Aerodynamics

                              Not a problem. I feel this is demonstrable proof that Tactical Gamer teamwork will accomplish a goal far better then one lone wolf. It was my job to deploy the cheese. You spotted and confirmed it's on target. :icon19:




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