Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

[LogicalHarm]

Are the Mac users here at TG upgrading to Snow Leopard any time soon?

Not sure I should hold off the upgrade, due to incompatible applications etc.

Would like to know if anyone else has upgraded and what their thoughts on it are?

[Celestial1]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

I and my brother both upgraded to Snow Leopard.

I've only gotten my first personal Mac computer within the last week, but I've used Macs before; My brother has been using Macs for quite a while.

He says that everything down to scrolling through the dock was smoother. I would say its pretty darn fast, but I've only had a true hands-on experience with Leopard in the first place, so I don't have any real base of comparison.

As far as I know, there shouldn't be many problems with applications not working due to the fact that a hefty portion of the upgrade is changing the OS to be 64-bit friendly.

(And, as a side note: my brother bought his copy of SL, installed it, and then I installed it afterwards with no issues, and he didn't buy the family pack.)

[LogicalHarm]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

I and my brother both upgraded to Snow Leopard.

I've only gotten my first personal Mac computer within the last week, but I've used Macs before; My brother has been using Macs for quite a while.

He says that everything down to scrolling through the dock was smoother. I would say its pretty darn fast, but I've only had a true hands-on experience with Leopard in the first place, so I don't have any real base of comparison.

As far as I know, there shouldn't be many problems with applications not working due to the fact that a hefty portion of the upgrade is changing the OS to be 64-bit friendly.

(And, as a side note: my brother bought his copy of SL, installed it, and then I installed it afterwards with no issues, and he didn't buy the family pack.)

Good to know.

re. family pack. yeah it's been well established that nearly every version of OS's that apple sells, (i.e upgrades, family editions, single editions) are all in fact exactly the same, the only difference being the price.

[Bamboo]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

I'm actually not trying to get into the whole Mac VS. PC debate at all here, but Engadget just posted this a couple hours ago:

Snow Leopard: what's broken (or working) for you?

And many other tech sites have a similar post.

I say go with what you like in the debate, but considering apple's whole marketing strategy lately is based on the fact that their product is supposed to "just work" while PCs just have countless problems, I think it might be time for a new strategy. Of course major new updates are going to have problems, and I'm completly understanding of that. And chances are not that many people are having that many problems. But you can't market you product as something that it's not, and that is how their commercials come off. And that is how they spent a good deal of the most recent MacWorld Keynote comparing themselves as.

And trust me, I'm not even trying to

[=Sarc=]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

http://lifehacker.com/5349204/snow-l...tly-in-base-10

I would say it's broken that they report disk space in base 10. It's one thing that manufacturers and developers use different standards for storage capacity but it's horrible to have different software report capacity differently.

[LogicalHarm]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

I say go with what you like in the debate, but considering apple's whole marketing strategy lately is based on the fact that their product is supposed to "just work" while PCs just have countless problems, I think it might be time for a new strategy. Of course major new updates are going to have problems, and I'm completly understanding of that. And chances are not that many people are having that many problems.

I expect there to be problems with all updates. It's been the same with every version of OSX so far, but problems have always been fixed swiftly. There seem to be less problems with this update though, even though some applications are inevitably having trouble.

[Celestial1]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

considering apple's whole marketing strategy lately is based on the fact that their product is supposed to "just work" while PCs just have countless problems, I think it might be time for a new strategy. Of course major new updates are going to have problems, and I'm completly understanding of that. And chances are not that many people are having that many problems. But you can't market you product as something that it's not, and that is how their commercials come off. And that is how they spent a good deal of the most recent MacWorld Keynote comparing themselves as.

Yes, of course there will be problems.

(However, that said, it is less likely for it to have problems since a majority of the update is adding 64-bit friendly features. Any older leopard apps that cannot run in 64x will definitely have a problem here.)

However, I sure had a harder time setting up my Windows OSes than setting up this Mac. You can amplify that difficulty and frustration billion fold when you replace a moderately experienced techy like myself with a technologically retarded individual.

http://lifehacker.com/5349204/snow-l...tly-in-base-10

I would say it's broken that they report disk space in base 10. It's one thing that manufacturers and developers use different standards for storage capacity but it's horrible to have different software report capacity differently.

Well, if you look at it from a marketer-to-customer point of view, you should know that a lot of inexperienced customers will wonder why a 1 gigabyte pen drive will show 0.9 gigs, or a terabyte drive will show 495 gigs, they think they are being cheated, when they really aren't.

If all systems were to report disk space in base 10, then this issue would be resolved, and usage reports will still more or less be just as accurate (if OSes were base 10 but programs were base 2, you would have an issue reporting a proper amount that reflected what would be the right amount in a consumers head; if they're both in base 10, this issue is nonexistant since they both equal up just like any product and OS that both use base 2).

[=Sarc=]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

Well, if you look at it from a marketer-to-customer point of view, you should know that a lot of inexperienced customers will wonder why a 1 gigabyte pen drive will show 0.9 gigs, or a terabyte drive will show 495 gigs, they think they are being cheated, when they really aren't.

If all systems were to report disk space in base 10, then this issue would be resolved, and usage reports will still more or less be just as accurate (if OSes were base 10 but programs were base 2, you would have an issue reporting a proper amount that reflected what would be the right amount in a consumers head; if they're both in base 10, this issue is nonexistant since they both equal up just like any product and OS that both use base 2).

That doesn't make any sense to me. It seems more reasonable to get the manufacturers to conform to the original standard of reporting sizes in base 2. This way Snow Leopard users won't see odd sizes on their systems and a different size when moving files to another OS. Then there's the problem of the size requirements specified for applications. People are going to be more confused than before.

It would make the most sense if the manufacturers stopped using their underhanded marketing tactics to make consumers think drives are larger sizes than the software actually determines them to be. Software has been using base 2 since the beginning so it's the manufacturer's fault for this confusion in the first place.

[Celestial1]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

That doesn't make any sense to me. It seems more reasonable to get the manufacturers to conform to the original standard of reporting sizes in base 2. This way Snow Leopard users won't see odd sizes on their systems and a different size when moving files to another OS. Then there's the problem of the size requirements specified for applications. People are going to be more confused than before.

It would make the most sense if the manufacturers stopped using their underhanded marketing tactics to make consumers think drives are larger sizes than the software actually determines them to be. Software has been using base 2 since the beginning so it's the manufacturer's fault for this confusion in the first place.

The only 'confusion' that will arise is the argument between base 2 software and base 10 operating systems. Just like most systems are base 2 now and have no issues, if all systems and software converted to base 10 there would again be no issue. It's the communication differences between base 2 and 10 that cause this issue.

Base 10 isn't intended to make the OS show a higher size than actually present; it's meant to be a little more 'accurate', since a tech-illiterate consumer is likely to ask 'why is this less than what I bought?'.

If they didn't move to base 10, no one would, and therefore it would never happen; if they move to base 10 and it is deemed successful, then base 10 could become the industry standard.



This is mostly an issue of preference for tech saavy persons; I for one have no qualms with base 2, but then again if base 10 causes my relatives to stop asking me 'How come this fancy device that says 10 GEEBEES on this box is 9.85 GEEBEES on the computer? They're ripping me off!', then I'll be just as content.

It really doesn't affect most tech-saavy people much, so there's no real need to be concerned or confused, as far as I can see.

[=Sarc=]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

The only 'confusion' that will arise is the argument between base 2 software and base 10 operating systems. Just like most systems are base 2 now and have no issues, if all systems and software converted to base 10 there would again be no issue. It's the communication differences between base 2 and 10 that cause this issue.

Base 10 isn't intended to make the OS show a higher size than actually present; it's meant to be a little more 'accurate', since a tech-illiterate consumer is likely to ask 'why is this less than what I bought?'.

If they didn't move to base 10, no one would, and therefore it would never happen; if they move to base 10 and it is deemed successful, then base 10 could become the industry standard.



This is mostly an issue of preference for tech saavy persons; I for one have no qualms with base 2, but then again if base 10 causes my relatives to stop asking me 'How come this fancy device that says 10 GEEBEES on this box is 9.85 GEEBEES on the computer? They're ripping me off!', then I'll be just as content.

It really doesn't affect most tech-saavy people much, so there's no real need to be concerned or confused, as far as I can see.

You know what started the confusion? Leopard.

Switching everything to base 10 is useless. Changing software is patching a lot of software. Some software might not be updated for a long time. Some people may be confused after an update. People may be used to the way it used to report drive sizes. Leopard users might try to transfer a file to others and file sizes are going to be wrong and confusing. Changing the storage on the box is the best fix. It's where consumers first get information about the product. No software has to change.

To add to the confusion,these new solid state drives advertise in base 2. How does Leopard handle that? I guess people will be happy to have "more" storage versus thinking they have "less" storage.

Switching to base 10 is like swapping the order of the OK and cancel buttons on a dialog. People get used to a certain way and changing it can be confusing. It's best not to mess around with that or fix it at a place that doesn't require a lot of software to be patched.

[Celestial1]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

Switching everything to base 10 is useless. Changing software is patching a lot of software. Some software might not be updated for a long time. Some people may be confused after an update. People may be used to the way it used to report drive sizes. Leopard users might try to transfer a file to others and file sizes are going to be wrong and confusing. Changing the storage on the box is the best fix. It's where consumers first get information about the product. No software has to change.

I don't believe software would have to change at all. Base 10 will show a more 'accurate' size for products, and since math calculations can be done to convert base 2 to base 10, the OS could handle that itself; all base 10 does is enables the drives to read more true-to-packaging, which again will not likely affect any of us nearly as much as it would less tech-saavy persons.

Switching to base 10 is like swapping the order of the OK and cancel buttons on a dialog. People get used to a certain way and changing it can be confusing. It's best not to mess around with that or fix it at a place that doesn't require a lot of software to be patched.

I believe a better example would be changing the buttons from saying "Yes" and "No" to "OK" and "Cancel". You're not changing how anything really functions, only how it appears to the user. Each way has it's benefits, but the second provides a more 'accurate' read-off for users who need that kind of thing to ensure that they understand the computer is working right, since the #1 reason for errors on any computer is user error. Some less tech-saavy individuals may end up being frustrated at the store they bought it from, the brand that manufactures the drive, etc because they believe they were being 'ripped off', because they didn't understand how the system computed space.


(I may be wrong about some of this, but this is how I interpret the information.)

[=Sarc=]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

The reason I think it's better to change it on the manufacturer side is it affects all OS'es. It reaches more people with one fix. Fixing it on the OS only provides clarity for consumers that use that OS. Considering that Windows owns a large portion of the market, it makes more sense to change the drive size on the box.

The OS cannot control all software it encounters and changing to use base 10 stands to introduce confusion instead of providing clarity. If I go on a website and want to download a file, it'll say so and so size in base 2. Then I download the file and it says so and so size in base 10. I would be confused.

The OK Cancel example was not to point out the semantics of the button but the appearance or the layout of a dialog. Users get accustomed to a certain way and changing the appearance can be a little confusing. The other day I accidentally clicked on the wrong button on a dialog because the layout wasn't OK then Cancel. It was Help then OK and Cancel. I'm accustomed to OK being on the left side of the button group so I accidentally clicked Help.

A software change may be more true to the packaging but the problem exists because manufacturers changed the packaging in the first place. So how about changing it back to be more true to the software? The fix should be made where the least amount of adoption is required.

I think the best solution for software to do is provide a little popup or note explaining what this drive size means and why it may be different than advertised. It can go right in the dialog that shows the drive size. That would clear up any confusion while maintaining the standard that software has been using for years.

[Celestial1]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

The reason I think it's better to change it on the manufacturer side is it affects all OS'es. It reaches more people with one fix. Fixing it on the OS only provides clarity for consumers that use that OS. Considering that Windows owns a large portion of the market, it makes more sense to change the drive size on the box.

The OS cannot control all software it encounters and changing to use base 10 stands to introduce confusion instead of providing clarity. If I go on a website and want to download a file, it'll say so and so size in base 2. Then I download the file and it says so and so size in base 10.

Generally, there are two flavors of software offered; Windows, and Mac. Since Mac is using the base 10 format, it can show base 10 on the website for the Mac version with no effect on Windows users. If the website chooses to advertise their program in base 2 rather than base 10, then it becomes a Mac users issue, again not affecting Windows users.

The OK Cancel example was not to point out the semantics of the button but the appearance or the layout of a dialog.

I wasn't debating the semantics of the button; the buttons still DO the same thing.

They're just different appearance wise, but not in enough of an effect to throw you off.

I think the best solution for software to do is provide a little popup or note explaining what this drive size means and why it may be different than advertised. It can go right in the dialog that shows the drive size. That would clear up any confusion while maintaining the standard that software has been using for years.

Not every software would do it, and just like with the OS issue: why should one do it when no other one does it?

Often enough, a tech-illiterate user will not understand who or why they are 'losing' space, whether they think it's the product or the computer is completely dependant on their understandings, so doing it OS side ensures that ALL products will report the same size, instead of only the ones that choose to include this little bubble explaining it or physically changing their computations to base 10.


Nipping the problem at its source is the best way to take care of it, and OSes are the source. I'm sure that Windows is sketchy on the issue and wouldn't want their machiens reporting in base 10 until they decided to do so, so starting it at a higher level could have issues.

[=Sarc=]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

So you're assuming that a Mac Leopard user will never ever use a previous version of MacOS or another OS that uses base 10 again. Fixing one OS doesn't affect another OS that a user may encounter. Unless you mean a website should detect the user's OS and display file sizes the way the OS would, which would mean all websites have to update just to accommodate this change.

If you don't think one software should do this bubble notification, then why should Leopard change to base 10? It is one OS making this change. You're burning your own argument.

I wouldn't say that the OS is the source. Both points are sources of information. It's a many to many relationship. Harddrives can exist in different operating systems and operating systems have can many harddrives. The reason changing the size on the box is better is that it doesn't require software changes but a marketing change. Changing software isn't as easy as one would think. It's easy enough to create the change but distribution is more difficult. It isn't certain that all computers can be updated. Also, some software may calculate sizes in base 2 already which would not be affected by an OS change.

The OS change also doesn't take into account solid state drives that advertise in base 2. That's why those drives are 120Gb and 60Gb, not 128Gb and 64Gb respectively. It also doesn't affect programs installed. A programmer doesn't necessarily have some fancy OS call to determine a file's size. The programmer reads in the size of the file in bytes and displays it however, most likely base 2. So the software change is more than just an OS level change.

[Celestial1]

Re: Mac Users: Snow Leopard?

So you're assuming that a Mac Leopard user will never ever use a previous version of MacOS or another OS that uses base 10 again. Fixing one OS doesn't affect another OS that a user may encounter. Unless you mean a website should detect the user's OS and display file sizes the way the OS would, which would mean all websites have to update just to accommodate this change.

Go to install adobe flashplayer. They have a system that detects which OS you are using.
Look for any program that comes in both a Mac and Windows version; because Mac doesn't use .exe, a .dmg file must be provided, and it can be advertised as base 10 if the software provider decides to do so

I use both Windows XP, Vista, and Mac OSX 10.6; I don't have a problem with the change, because the files that work on all of the systems are generally smaller files such as pictures, text, etc, or videos, which doesn't bother me in the least that the files are advertised in one size and displayed in another.

If you don't think one software should do this bubble notification, then why should Leopard change to base 10? It is one OS making this change. You're burning your own argument.

It's just as unlikely for software to do the change as an OS. However, since the OS is the one doing so, it nips the problem at a higher level, meaning that software providers don't have to decide to make the change themselves, causing greater inconsistency than if it is changed at an OS level.

I wouldn't say that the OS is the source. Both points are sources of information. It's a many to many relationship. Harddrives can exist in different operating systems and operating systems have can many harddrives. The reason changing the size on the box is better is that it doesn't require software changes but a marketing change. Changing software isn't as easy as one would think. It's easy enough to create the change but distribution is more difficult. It isn't certain that all computers can be updated. Also, some software may calculate sizes in base 2 already which would not be affected by an OS change.

A marketing change, however much 'better' it may be, is a still much larger endeavor than changing computations on an OS.





I'm not saying that the change is perfect, we both know that there are a ton of issues between it, but I'm also seeing that if this change began influencing a wide range of technology, base 10 would become the new standard, and then there would again be no issues because everything would be reported in base 10. If not, then Apple made a courageous move and they might have to change their thinking to accomodate.

Until then, I think it's a little early to be calling foulplay on it, as we haven't really experienced too many difficulties as of yet since it is brand new.

Perhaps we shall agree to disagree?