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  • Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

    Was checking out the normal news on the BBC and came across this article:
    Hard drive evolution could hit Microsoft XP users

    I had read about the switch over that was about to happen to harddrives, and that it is a good thing, but not the part about XP not working well with the change.

    The thing to notice is :
    "Those most likely to see the performance problems are those building their own computers or swapping out an old drive for one that uses the new format. "

    So pretty much, if you are already running XP it will run fine. But if you try and upgrade your HD to one of the better new ones, your XP won't be happy. Windows XP really is starting to show it's age though. It still doesn't like big harddrives to begin with.

    Fudzilla also wrote about it this morning:
    Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

    LINKS

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    Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

    -Carlos A. Urbizo-


  • #2
    Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

    Windows XP came out in 2001. So it's already had a 9 year run. With Windows 7 being so danged good and under $100, it's time to upgrade anyway.
    "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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    • #3
      Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

      So the those computers running a newer more recent OS is fine. Well, like they say, out with the old, in with the new.
      |TG-18th| Acreo Aeneas
      TG World of Tanks Clan Executive Officer
      Former 9th & 13th

      Pronounciation: Eh-Cree-Oh Ah-Nay-Ess
      Still can't say it? Call me Acorn then. -.-





      SSDs I Own: Kingston HyperX 3K (240 GB), Samsung 840 Pro (256 GB), Samsung 840 EVO (250 GB), Samsung 840 x 2 (120 GB), Plextor M5S (120 GB), OCZ Vertex (30 GB)

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      • #4
        Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

        People still using xp at this point aren't doing it because of money. It's just what they like and most likely the reason Idema are doing anything to accommodate. I guess there are enough xp users out there. I didn't notice it though.


        - -

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        • #5
          Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

          The Fudzilla article is FUD as you don't have to upgrade next year no matter what you are using if you just keep using the same hard drive. Of course the article is misleading because it says:

          Even die hard Windows XP users will have to upgrade next year because their favourite operating system can't handle the new generation of harddrives.

          By early 2011 all hard drives that come onto the market will use an "advanced format" that changes how they go about saving the data people store on them. It will mean that hard drive makers can produce bigger drives that use less power and are more reliable. But it will not run on Windows XP which has a hard-drive formatted into blocks 512 bytes in size.
          http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314878/ states:

          Code:
          Drive size                   
             (logical volume)             Cluster size          Sectors
             ----------------------------------------------------------
               512 MB or less               512 bytes           1
               513 MB - 1,024 MB (1 GB)   1,024 bytes (1 KB)    2
             1,025 MB - 2,048 MB (2 GB)   2,048 bytes (2 KB)    4
             2,049 MB and larger          4,096 bytes (4 KB)    8
          The maximum default cluster size under Windows XP is 4 kilobytes (KB) because NTFS file compression is not possible on drives with a larger allocation size. The Format utility never uses clusters that are larger than 4 KB unless you specifically override that default either by using the /A: option for command-line formatting or by specifying a larger cluster size in the Format dialog box in Disk Management.

          If you use the Convert utility to convert a volume from FAT to NTFS, Windows always uses a 512-byte cluster size. FAT structures are aligned on 512-byte boundaries; a larger cluster size does not allow conversion. Note also that in Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 and earlier, when a partition is formatted under Windows Setup, the partition is first formatted as FAT and then converted to NTFS. Therefore the cluster size is always 512 bytes when a partition is formatted in Setup. (This information does not apply to Microsoft Windows 2000 Setup or Windows XP Setup, which both format the partition according to your choice of a file system.)
          Basically, this whole thing is FUD and is based on the default settings for formatting a drive 512MB or less in 2001. I'm fairly certain my drive is already set to 4kb blocks since it is over 2gb but I'm not at home to check.
          Last edited by snooggums; 03-12-2010, 12:31 PM. Reason: can't spell
          |TG-6th|Snooggums

          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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          • #6
            Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

            Originally posted by snooggums View Post
            The Fudzilla article is FUD as you don't have to upgrade next year no matter what you are using if you just keep using the same hard drive. Of course the article is misleading because it says:



            http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314878/ states:



            Basically, this whole thing is FUD and is based on the default settings for formatting a drive 512MB or less in 2001. I'm fairly certain my drive is already set to 4kb blocks since it is over 2gb but I'm not at home to check.
            Tech writers. *sigh*

            +1 brownie points to Snoggums for catching the error.
            |TG-18th| Acreo Aeneas
            TG World of Tanks Clan Executive Officer
            Former 9th & 13th

            Pronounciation: Eh-Cree-Oh Ah-Nay-Ess
            Still can't say it? Call me Acorn then. -.-





            SSDs I Own: Kingston HyperX 3K (240 GB), Samsung 840 Pro (256 GB), Samsung 840 EVO (250 GB), Samsung 840 x 2 (120 GB), Plextor M5S (120 GB), OCZ Vertex (30 GB)

            TG Primer and Rules

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            • #7
              Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

              Engadget's post on the topic

              Win XP needs some TLC to use next-gen hard drives

              LINKS

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              Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

              -Carlos A. Urbizo-

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              • #8
                Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                Originally posted by Bamboo View Post
                Also a complete lie.

                This is the actual problem:

                And as luck would have it, the most widely used operating system in the world will always create partitions that don't line up nicely. Single partition Windows XP systems will always make the first partition start on the 63rd 512 byte sector. If it was just one sector further on, then everything would line up nicely on these pseudo-512 byte sector drives. But as it is, Windows XP partitions on such a disk will have to suffer two RMW operations for almost every single write made to the disk. This is mitigated somewhat by many operations being multiples of 4096 bytes, so it's only at the start and end of each operation that the read-modify-write is needed, but nonetheless the overhead is substantial.
                http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...xp-users.ars/2

                The problem isn't that XP only uses 512 sectors because it came out in X year, the problem is that when 4k sectors are used in XP, contrary to the previous articles saying that isn't possible, the problem is the initial sector being 512 causing misalignment.
                Last edited by snooggums; 03-13-2010, 12:21 AM.
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                • #9
                  Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                  Well, even if they are reporting it somewhat wrong, the bottom line is still that XP won't be able to run as well on the new drives once they come out. So probably a good idea next time you need to do a harddrive upgrade, just go ahead and move to windows 7.

                  LINKS

                  * *


                  Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

                  -Carlos A. Urbizo-

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                  • #10
                    Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                    Some info from M$ here:http://bigsector.net/user_img/Microsoft.pdf

                    DB

                    «That looks like a really nice house except for that horrible bathroom.» Donrhos

                    | |





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                    • #11
                      Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                      Isn't the initial misalignment because of the 30+ year backwards-compatibility from the days when we had the IBM type 1-40 drives? That is, the translation from CHS (Cylinder, Head, Sector) block addressing to LBA. That, from what I understand, is the cause of Windows and older MSDOS partitions starting on 63, because thats the first large sector available after the MBR, etc.

                      From what I've understood, doing some research on this, the problem is getting the by-default 4KB sectors to align up without causing unnecessary overhead. That is, starting at sector 63, you need to shift every block on the HD to a multiple of 8, etc instead. There's utilities and programs to translate it, but at the cost of performance decreases.

                      Some other interesting things I've dug up..

                      http://www.osnews.com/story/22872/Li...or_Hard_Drives

                      Guy doing random writes sees a 230% increase in write-time per job, for example.

                      <04:11:24> *** You are now talking in channel: "TFP - Task Force Proteus"
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                      DICE needs to make a comical boxing glove attached to a spring punch the player in the face 40% of the time they get into a helicopter or jet.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                        Originally posted by Bamboo View Post
                        Well, even if they are reporting it somewhat wrong, the bottom line is still that XP won't be able to run as well on the new drives once they come out. So probably a good idea next time you need to do a harddrive upgrade, just go ahead and move to windows 7.
                        No, the bottom line is that a default setup for Windows XP won't run as well. It is complete scaremongering to encourage people to upgrade, using false claims and stating it as gospel that it cannot be corrected. In actuality it requires a little bit of formatting to match the Windows install to the drive.

                        It's like saying that if you bought a newer video card with an DVI output you can't use it with a VGA monitor even though it comes with the adapter. There's a reason I checked arstechnica to verify the story, they are more likely to explain the actual problem.
                        |TG-6th|Snooggums

                        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                          Every version of Windows, from at least as far back as 3.1, required significantly more resources than its predecessor. The reason Vista fell on its face at release was because people were upgrading gutless wonders running XP and figuring Vista wouldn't require any more horsepower. I would expect that to be true of Win7 as well, requiring yet more resources than Vista. So loading Win7 on a 4 year old computer is unlikely to be pleasant.

                          I'm sure most people in this forum upgrade their hardware fairly frequently. But small companies facing a recession aren't going to be looking forward to swapping out a ton of hardware just because the hard disk market is changing. Most of the little companies I deal with have incredibly old PCs muddling along, some even running Win2k or older.
                          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                          • #14
                            Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                            Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post

                            I'm sure most people in this forum upgrade their hardware fairly frequently. But small companies facing a recession aren't going to be looking forward to swapping out a ton of hardware just because the hard disk market is changing. Most of the little companies I deal with have incredibly old PCs muddling along, some even running Win2k or older.
                            I know what you mean. One company I worked for required us to enter data on every student we worked with, and every time we met them for a program. But the computer was on Win98, and the program they wanted to use was in DOS. I laughed when they first told me, thinking it was a joke. I loved almost everything about that job except the record keeping.

                            LINKS

                            * *


                            Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

                            -Carlos A. Urbizo-

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                            • #15
                              Re: Windows XP users will have to upgrade by next year

                              Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                              Every version of Windows, from at least as far back as 3.1, required significantly more resources than its predecessor. The reason Vista fell on its face at release was because people were upgrading gutless wonders running XP and figuring Vista wouldn't require any more horsepower. I would expect that to be true of Win7 as well, requiring yet more resources than Vista. So loading Win7 on a 4 year old computer is unlikely to be pleasant.

                              I'm sure most people in this forum upgrade their hardware fairly frequently. But small companies facing a recession aren't going to be looking forward to swapping out a ton of hardware just because the hard disk market is changing. Most of the little companies I deal with have incredibly old PCs muddling along, some even running Win2k or older.
                              Just because new drives will not be easily compatible with the new format doesn't mean vendor's won't have compatible drives on hand for older machines or have the option to format the drive in a way that fixes the issue. I'll bet those win2k machines have drives that are years old, they will just need a backup to have on hand in case they go down, or the company can spend the small amount of money that it would take to replace a win2k era machine if the drive finally failed.
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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