Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...e-stealth-jet/

    So basically our military spent a humongous amount of money on yet another failed jet. Anybody remember those F-22's? Well a similar design flaw is grounding the new F-35's, only we've paid more for these ones. These jets will only be good for about 5 years instead of the 25 we were promised.

    Worst yet, we have politicians who are trying to advocate the program because of their own self interest and going against actual experts and safety concerns. Way to care for our troops there.

    The whole thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I wish we could just "RMA" the whole damn project and either get some of our money back, or actually correct the issue without added cost. I've said it before and I'll say it again, military spending is absolutely ludicrous. Design contracts that award an insane amount of money to a project that ends up failing. It would have been better if we simply scrapped the project altogether and never paid the money in the first place.

    What are your thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

    You are correct. Military spending is outrageous, but I still feel a reliable new generation jet is an important thing to have. Air power is a very large part of our ability to project force across the world. Say what you will about the whole "America World Police" policy, but we at least need a new stealth jet to go against the boiler plate F-22 the Chinese are developing.

    That said, we spend all this money and they're just finding out about this now? Wouldn't this be type of thing to come up in computer models are structural testing?
    Last edited by Spyder228; 09-07-2011, 12:44 PM.


    TG-18th 18th SF Operational Detachment Delta

    If you're playing the game, be in the correct TeamSpeak Channel.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

      It's dangerous and irresponsible to look at a project into unknown territory while it's teething as worthless, especially if that means throwing away the ultimate sacrifices made by the brave service members in pursuit of this project. If we turned tail and ran from challenges, ultimately we would never have landed on the moon, and we might be speaking Russian.

      The 22 and 35 are ventures into unknown territory and will eventually yield incredibly useful technologies for the civilian world in the form of highly advanced composites and electronic systems. There are far more wasteful and undefendably bad programs quietly totaling billions of dollars outside the DoD's sphere of influence, but they are subjects that are just not talked about.

      This of course, is to say nothing of the F22's performance so far, which aside from the well publicized failures, has enjoyed plenty of less reported on success, including unprecedented kill ratios in redflag exercises.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

        This may be a simplistic way to look at the situation, but it seems to me that Lockheed/Martin should eat the cost of this. If I take my car to a repair shop and they use a deficient part, I expect them to fix it at no additional cost to me. They were provided with a set of parameters in the contract that the airframe is supposed to adhere to, and it is not performing to those guidelines. I do understand that it is a LOT of money and time to fix this, ut so was the contract they were awarded.
        |TG-Irr|Avengingllama
        I used to eat paint chips. Now I just drink the paint because I couldn't find a salsa that went well with the chips and they were dry =)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

          Originally posted by avenging llama View Post
          This may be a simplistic way to look at the situation, but it seems to me that Lockheed/Martin should eat the cost of this. If I take my car to a repair shop and they use a deficient part, I expect them to fix it at no additional cost to me. They were provided with a set of parameters in the contract that the airframe is supposed to adhere to, and it is not performing to those guidelines. I do understand that it is a LOT of money and time to fix this, ut so was the contract they were awarded.
          That's a great thought and I'd totally support this. I'm sure they'd legal out of it somehow though.


          TG-18th 18th SF Operational Detachment Delta

          If you're playing the game, be in the correct TeamSpeak Channel.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

            Originally posted by Spyder228 View Post
            That said, we spend all this money and they're just finding out about this now? Wouldn't this be type of thing to come up in computer models are structural testing?
            Generally speaking, yes. Now while it can be hard to predict all the effects that traveling at Mach 1+ will have on a structure, glaring failures like this one should show up at some point in modeling.

            Choose Your Own Assumption:

            Rational Path: Poor material modeling didn't accurately portray the structure's limitations.

            Conspiratorial Path: The engineers tasked with modeling the design were told to shut their mouths by their bosses, since it would mean another couple of years to fix the flaws, meaning more money spent and more magazines like WIRED writing trashy op-ed pieces about how the DoD is wasting money on failed designs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

              These things are bound to happen. We are trying to do this as cheaply as possible, stuff happens.



              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                I feel like it's a case of the US military spending top dollar (which they did of course setting a new record didn't they?) but the manufacturer skipping out and giving us weaker, inferior materials in the wing design, all for higher profit margins. Make no mistake, military spending is one area of government spending that more often than not is awarded to the highest bidder, not the lowest. I agree we do need a new model jet in circulation, but this seems like another feather in a cap of wasteful spending. When I see social programs that serve so many people get cut all so we can afford some more useless but fancy deck ornaments I am saddened at the emphasis we place on our military above all else. Anyone hear about that military hovercraft APC that's supposed to hover approx. 6 feet over the ground? The amount awarded for that contract was ridiculous and probably another ill advised investment.

                We've gone through how many major revisions since the F-16 and yet we're still using a design that's now 35 years old and still putting to shame anything that Lockheed-Martin are putting together. As far as I'm concerned Lockheed-Martin have failed to deliver way too many times now and shouldn't be awarded any more contracts. Why are we catering to such a failed company?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                  We didn't pay top dollar. We paid the company who the government thought could do it the cheapest.

                  Does it cost a lot? Sure. More than what we thought? Yes, that is usually what happens when you are trying to development next generation tech (its not developing an update). The costs of development are all speculation.

                  As a side note, regardless of military spending, more social programs need to be cut. The people need more incentive to work instead of live off the government's dime (which isn't worth much lately).



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                    I don't think many programs need cut completely, rather they just need stricter enrollment criteria. You have to admit that the US greatly overspends on the military. The country would have a lot more money if started curbing frivolous military spending.


                    TG-18th 18th SF Operational Detachment Delta

                    If you're playing the game, be in the correct TeamSpeak Channel.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                      Originally posted by machowner View Post
                      We didn't pay top dollar. We paid the company who the government thought could do it the cheapest.
                      Wrong, we did pay top dollar. We are paying top dollar. The whole Joint Strike Fighter is the most expensive program in Pentagon history. This is the number one, top paid contractor for the US being awarded over $38 billion. It's not because they could do it the cheapest. Not by a long shot. Most of government is required to shop for the lowest cost possible by laws and regulations. The military does not have nearly the same amount of restrictions put on them. The real reason this contract was awarded was because Lockheed-Martin is one of the biggest campaign contributors and represents a significant amount of business to Texas and Georgia alone. If they were not awarded this contract the campaign funds for some politicians might not come in as high, maybe not as many jobs were created specifically by Lockheed-Martin.

                      Originally posted by machowner View Post
                      Does it cost a lot? Sure. More than what we thought? Yes, that is usually what happens when you are trying to development next generation tech (its not developing an update). The costs of development are all speculation.
                      Agreed, however they admitted to having a defective design in the aluminum beam for the wings. We're not talking about a complex engine here, we're talking specifically about a wing design that was not designed with proper reinforcement. The fancy new fangled tech is fine. They failed to design a proper wing structure. Should we really have them designing any kind of jet system for us? As far as I'm concerned they're 0 for 2, both of those projects being some of the costliest programs to date.

                      Originally posted by machowner View Post
                      As a side note, regardless of military spending, more social programs need to be cut. The people need more incentive to work instead of live off the government's dime (which isn't worth much lately).
                      I personally disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. However it sounds like you are basing social programs on the definition of social security and welfare. That would be a mistake since social programs pretty much cover everything under the sun down to simple street sweeping, pothole repair etc. Which many cities have cut out of their budget due to lack of funds.

                      So yes Fancy Hood Ornaments > Actual services rendered on a daily basis.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                        Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
                        Wrong, we did pay top dollar. We are paying top dollar. The whole Joint Strike Fighter is the most expensive program in Pentagon history. This is the number one, top paid contractor for the US being awarded over $38 billion. It's not because they could do it the cheapest. Not by a long shot. Most of government is required to shop for the lowest cost possible by laws and regulations. The military does not have nearly the same amount of restrictions put on them. The real reason this contract was awarded was because Lockheed-Martin is one of the biggest campaign contributors and represents a significant amount of business to Texas and Georgia alone. If they were not awarded this contract the campaign funds for some politicians might not come in as high, maybe not as many jobs were created specifically by Lockheed-Martin.
                        Can't argue with conspiracy theories. They are not just given a blank check.


                        Agreed, however they admitted to having a defective design in the aluminum beam for the wings. We're not talking about a complex engine here, we're talking specifically about a wing design that was not designed with proper reinforcement. The fancy new fangled tech is fine. They failed to design a proper wing structure. Should we really have them designing any kind of jet system for us? As far as I'm concerned they're 0 for 2, both of those projects being some of the costliest programs to date.
                        The plane is built from the ground up as a completely new design. That includes those fancy wings. Should we completely get rid of them because of this problem proves them incapable? I don't know, I have a feeling that any company you choose to complete this project will have similar issues. They are not just building another jet. Only other country to try this is china. No telling how much they spent or if they jet even works as advertised either. I think it is a bit more complex than you think.


                        I personally disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. However it sounds like you are basing social programs on the definition of social security and welfare. That would be a mistake since social programs pretty much cover everything under the sun down to simple street sweeping, pothole repair etc. Which many cities have cut out of their budget due to lack of funds.

                        So yes Fancy Hood Ornaments > Actual services rendered on a daily basis.
                        No you are exactly right. I am tired of social programs that are bankrupt and will continue to be because of two reasons; too easy to get benefits, much much too easy to stay on them. If you are narrow minded enough to think that my saying "cut more social programs" equals "cut ALL programs" well that is your problem. As I said earlier, people need more incentive to work. Do we need programs that provide jobs for doing something that is needed (street sweeping, pothole repair)? Yes. Do we need welfare to sap the life out of the country? Hell no. The barn in full people.



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                          Originally posted by machowner View Post
                          Can't argue with conspiracy theories. They are not just given a blank check.
                          I didn't say it was a blank check. However it is the most expensive project to date. Fact: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/milit...nse_04-21.html
                          This fact is also echoed in the original article I posted as well as the listed support from politicians who have something to gain from Lockhead-Martin's continued investment of US funds. It's not a conspiracy theory, it is fact and research.

                          Originally posted by machowner View Post
                          The plane is built from the ground up as a completely new design. That includes those fancy wings. Should we completely get rid of them because of this problem proves them incapable? I don't know, I have a feeling that any company you choose to complete this project will have similar issues. They are not just building another jet. Only other country to try this is china. No telling how much they spent or if they jet even works as advertised either. I think it is a bit more complex than you think.
                          I'm not underestimating how complex it is. A more powerful jet engine requires sturdier wings. Sometimes you can't anticipate all the variables and you end up with failed designs. I get that. But this is unacceptable for them to be expecting more money after they are the top paid Federal contractor with the most expensive project awarded to date. This is their second time for major failure. Why can't we go back to using a company like General Dynamics which gave us the incredibly useful F-16?

                          Originally posted by machowner View Post
                          No you are exactly right. I am tired of social programs that are bankrupt and will continue to be because of two reasons; too easy to get benefits, much much too easy to stay on them. If you are narrow minded enough to think that my saying "cut more social programs" equals "cut ALL programs" well that is your problem. As I said earlier, people need more incentive to work. Do we need programs that provide jobs for doing something that is needed (street sweeping, pothole repair)? Yes. Do we need welfare to sap the life out of the country? Hell no. The barn in full people.
                          Probably just a misunderstanding between us, but the definition of social programs is much broader than just social security. I'm not saying cut all programs but when I hear you say cut social programs I do think of just more than social security. Social programs as a whole don't need to be cut. Most are scraping by as it is. Should Social Security, Medicare, and Medicade be retuned and reduced? Absoluely. I still say 20+% is ridiculous to spend on military.

                          I guess it's really boiling down to me as, do we really need a new jet technology this badly? We're spending so much money on a money pit with little to no returns.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                            ....
                            Last edited by sapientiea; 09-12-2011, 02:47 PM. Reason: double post srry

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: New Stealth Jet is yet another failed project.

                              Yeah the Dutch government is has also invested in the joint strike fighter about 10^9 Euro of the total 600^9Euro. Quite a big amount for our country. But hey development costs cannot be known before, that is just why research has to be done, because you wander in uncharted territory.

                              Although sometimes I wander if spending this amount of money on NOT making more enemies would be a better solution........

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X