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  • Good vs Evil

    John CANavar said...
    life is not black and white... there is no such thing as absolute evil or good. If you take a side you also accept to be evil and good at the same time.
    So it's time we introduced logic and objectivity to the above statement to see if we can find out whether life is black or white, or just a blur of grey.

    How can one be evil and good at the same time? Is there a line we can draw that says, no - that is not good? Is the "life is not black and white" just an argument used by people to win over a point? What does it really mean?

    Personally I happen to think that life is pretty much black and white. You know what's right and what is wrong and there's a tiny bit in the middle that may be grey. I personally think the "Life is grey" arguement is used by people who aren't concerned with being responsible for their own actions, but maybe we can see what really is going on?
    Jex.


  • #2
    Re: Good vs Evil

    this kind of follows the saying "one mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter" which i have to say i have always thought of as bollocks.

    i can see the logic, but if i even entertain the thought that terrorists have some smidgin of an argument, they win... call that ignorant, but much the same as a child having a tantrum, i will not respond to kicking and screaming so much as i will not respond to suicide attacks on civillians, so for purly ethical reasons i see it as black and white.

    i think a large part of this question revolves around perception, you see, much like the IQ test many of us can sit which tells us how fast our brains are... it was designed for the wetern civilisation. if a middle eastern person sat the exam they might not d so well...

    good and bad, right and wrong, are cultural questions more than anything else, good and bad in the west hundreds of years ago, go many innocent women convicted of being witches and killed. we have evolved our good and bad, and changed our right and wrongs. for this reason alone, life must be grey, if there is a defining line, that is somehow inbread, why do we change it. if life were black and white, change would be wrong.

    i believe that life is grey and it is this cultural perception that causes conflict, in the end, it comes down to who believes tyhe most in what they are doing is correct.

    but enough of that, my brain hurts.... what a bloody question jex.


    www.TeamElement.com

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    • #3
      Re: Good vs Evil

      Absolutes depend on a fixed stance. To declare something as absolute is to have an unwavering point of reference.

      For some, religion offers this fixed point. "God" is a damn popular point of reference, all things considered. We'll not go into the fact that no one's god-concept seems to go along with anyone else's... that can come later, maybe.

      For others, the self offers this foundation. Judgement is passed based on personal views (which can even be acknowledged as personal, but make no mistake, judgement is passed).

      Both of these ideas (and maybe others I'm not thinking of right now) offer the ability to think in terms of "good" and "evil", as they have a reference that they cling to.

      Those who think in grays lack this center point, usually by choice. The best you can do without a center -- and even this is a stretch -- is "better" and "worse". Relativism takes the fact that so many centers exist and draw from it the conclusion that no center exists. It can be seen as the elimination of responsibility, I suppose, but that can only happen by applying a paradigm TO the relativist; without a center of her own, the relativist doesn't operate in terms of obligations.

      Now... as to being good and evil at the same time, you can see now that it's a difference of reference points (or perhaps the lack of them altogether). Lines can be drawn easily enough; it's agreeing on them that's near impossible.
      [volun2]
      NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
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      • #4
        Re: Good vs Evil

        Hmmm that post was going to go on forever with examples of what is bad and what is good. EDIT - I mean the post I was writing ;) I need an example of what is grey.

        As for terrorists, there is no argument. Killing innocent people is bad. As for foreign policy that kills people in other countries, that is also bad (which may cause someone to be a terrorist). There's no grey here is there?

        Perhaps we need to strip away the meat of a grey area and leave us with the bare bones of a problem. As Leejo said in the other post that caused this one, "the older I get the more I think the world is black and white", words to that effect anyway. Perhaps I'm just getting wiser, or perhpas I'm just full of... :p
        Jex.

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        • #5
          Re: Good vs Evil

          Poker. Casting judgement is bad, as is subjectivity when it concerns others. Believing in god is not bad or good is it?

          Can we not define something as bad that causes something else injury. Causing harm onto others is a bad is it not? Making someone do something against there will is bad is it not? Conning people is bad. I've yet to see a good example of something that is grey. I nkow there are some out there but I can't remember them lol.

          good damn keyboard grrrr
          Jex.

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          • #6
            Re: Good vs Evil

            euthanasia is grey, it is in my personal perception, a good thing to releave someone from misery, but i am not comfortable with playing god.

            that is very grey,

            ofcourse as i tried to explain in the first post, its all down to perception, and perception its self is grey...

            so there you have it two grey areas... euthanasia... one you can pick round if you like... and perception, something that is cultural and constantly changing... ,both are grey IMO...


            www.TeamElement.com

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            • #7
              Re: Good vs Evil

              Originally posted by jex
              I need an example of what is grey.
              Killing a person is bad.
              Not being killed is good.
              Killing someone that is trying to kill you isn't bad, because you survive; it's also not good, because you killed a person.
              [squadl]
              "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

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              • #8
                Re: Good vs Evil

                Yes euthanasia is a good one. We're supposing that the person to be killed is unable to convey the decision? If so then how is it good for the person, or does it just satisfy the living that they need not bear the guilt any longer of watching the suffering? We cannot assume that people in pain want death - many beings will hang onto life as much as possible no matter what.

                If the person wishes the killing to be carried and can convey the point, then I cannot see that as a bad move because it is something that the person has asked.
                Jex.

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                • #9
                  Re: Good vs Evil

                  Originally posted by jex
                  Poker. Casting judgement is bad, as is subjectivity when it concerns others. Believing in god is not bad or good is it?

                  Can we not define something as bad that causes something else injury. Causing harm onto others is a bad is it not? Making someone do something against there will is bad is it not? Conning people is bad. I've yet to see a good example of something that is grey. I nkow there are some out there but I can't remember them lol.

                  good damn keyboard grrrr

                  i think i have given you a good example of a grey area... at least one i think to be true... as for defining something as bad that causes something else injury... well no i dont think you can, a lion must hurt and kill another animal to feed its young, whilst the hurting and subsequent death of an animal is not enjoyable in the slightest to me, i can see that it needed to be done to ensure the safety and survival of another animal and its young.

                  nature is full of this kind of situation, where something has to give, and some harm has to come to a few so that the others can survive.

                  and again we call upon perception, because i bet if you spoke to a hunter, he would not think twice about killing an animal for sport, and no other reason, i think thats wrong, but i am also a hypocrit on this subject, because in England, and my English culture, we dont hunt dear and whatever else people hunt, and i see killing of these animals as wrong and cruel..... (actrually i should say in urban london culture, there are those who hunt in england)

                  at the same tiome and the part that makes me a hypocrit, i fish, just this past two weeks i stocked my grandads freezer with over 60 mackeral, i killed 1 dog fish i went diving and ate about 10 scallops i collected. all of which was taking the life of another creature, but to me it was acceptable because of my perception.


                  www.TeamElement.com

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                  • #10
                    Re: Good vs Evil

                    Originally posted by SmokingTarpan
                    Killing a person is bad.
                    Not being killed is good.
                    Killing someone that is trying to kill you isn't bad, because you survive; it's also not good, because you killed a person.
                    Good example of good and bad together. Yet the person was trying to kill you so you had no choice and he got what he deserved, assuming you weren't bad before hand. If you were, then that's another story.
                    Jex.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Good vs Evil

                      Originally posted by SmokingTarpan
                      Killing a person is bad.
                      Not being killed is good.
                      Killing someone that is trying to kill you isn't bad, because you survive; it's also not good, because you killed a person.

                      a good one,

                      and as for euthanasia, if i ask to die, should i get my wish, to someone who believes in freedom of choice, this is ok, i will be killed.... to a person who believes in god, it is not so, i am not to die because god has a plan for me..

                      both people have a valid argument, both people will absolutly disagree with one another. the grey comes here, where there is no right answer.


                      www.TeamElement.com

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                      • #12
                        Re: Good vs Evil

                        Originally posted by DudeMan
                        i think i have given you a good example of a grey area... at least one i think to be true... as for defining something as bad that causes something else injury... well no i dont think you can, a lion must hurt and kill another animal to feed its young, whilst the hurting and subsequent death of an animal is not enjoyable in the slightest to me, i can see that it needed to be done to ensure the safety and survival of another animal and its young.

                        nature is full of this kind of situation, where something has to give, and some harm has to come to a few so that the others can survive.

                        and again we call upon perception, because i bet if you spoke to a hunter, he would not think twice about killing an animal for sport, and no other reason, i think thats wrong, but i am also a hypocrit on this subject, because in England, and my English culture, we dont hunt dear and whatever else people hunt, and i see killing of these animals as wrong and cruel..... (actrually i should say in urban london culture, there are those who hunt in england)

                        at the same tiome and the part that makes me a hypocrit, i fish, just this past two weeks i stocked my grandads freezer with over 60 mackeral, i killed 1 dog fish i went diving and ate about 10 scallops i collected. all of which was taking the life of another creature, but to me it was acceptable because of my perception.
                        Good points dude. But we can't really use lions as an example as they have no concept. As for us killing things, whatever it is, of course that is bad. I also used to fish from time to time - why should any animal have to die because I decide it so. I must be sick to gain pleasure from killing something else?

                        I'm starting to think that "grey" areas are formed because either we can't be bothered to put the time in to make things "good", or are too selfish to do so.

                        I drive a car to work, there is no reason for me to do so. I could buy a bike and cycle in the 16 miles everyday and save the environment. Other people are prepared to do it. If not I can move closer to work. The good thing to do would be to move or walk/run/cycle in. Am I a bad person for polluting the environment because I'm a lazy arsehole - YES! But given an alternative of a green car to use (that bad people keep from being produced), I'd take that option.

                        But am I as bad as a killer lol - mmm grades of badness. Maybe I shouldn't have started this one
                        Jex.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Good vs Evil

                          Originally posted by jex
                          Good example of good and bad together. Yet the person was trying to kill you so you had no choice and he got what he deserved, assuming you weren't bad before hand. If you were, then that's another story.

                          you see ytou are thinking too much about the scenario, when you should also be thinking of the good and bad, or the grey of why these people were trying to kill each other.

                          i will kill for my primary values, my family, my country etc.... and the person i may be killing for example in a war between the west, and the islamic extremists. the person i will be killing will also be trying to kill me because my valuse, my primary values of freedom, directly conflict with his primary values.

                          this is the grey, i believe with every ounce of my soul that people should be free from opression, and that militant regiemes need to be irradicated. and he believes that the regiemes are gods law, and nothing to do with me... who is right... who can decide, thats the grey.


                          www.TeamElement.com

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                          • #14
                            Re: Good vs Evil

                            Originally posted by jex
                            Yet the person was trying to kill you so you had no choice
                            But were you left without a choice? You could have let the person kill you, and retained your "goodness". You'd just be dead in the process.

                            It's one of the big problems I have with many major religions. Their faith's tenets say that causing others harm is wrong, yet they justify their way around it with fancy words. If the Supreme Being says "No killing", the SB won't care to be quoted human law saying that killing is okay under certain circumstances.

                            Humans make all things grey, when there is need.
                            [squadl]
                            "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

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                            • #15
                              Re: Good vs Evil

                              i disagree jex, a lion does have a concept, a lion knows that if it does not get meat, protien or a supliment thereof, it and its family will die. therefore it has to kill to satisfy that need, or moreover it chooses to kill as its the most efficient way... much the sam,e way we farm our meat, a lion could not wait for a buffalo to have a heart attack so that it could eat it. anyway... we can stay off this if you like although i think nature in its self is a perfect example.

                              but jex, when you cycle the oil used top make yur tyres hurts the enviroment, the rubber on your shoes, the machinery that stiched your clothes the powerstations that burn coal to run your office, all damage the enviroment. with this argument we are back to better or worse, as poker suggested, not driving is better for the enviroment, but the moment you put on your nike shoes get on your rubbery tyres and go to your expensivly air conditioned office, you damage the3 enviroment. better or worse... or otherwise grey.


                              www.TeamElement.com

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