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  • when religious freedom has gone to far...

    "They came to our house at around 8 p.m. and asked us in Swahili whether we were Muslims. My husband told them we were Christians and they shot him in the head and chest," said Anne Gathigi.

    And yet we still tolerate a hostile religion because it's their "right"?

    My Q. If I started a religion that required all non-believers to be killed, would it be allowed?
    My Q. I'm all for religious freedom, but when do we say enough is enough, this religion is a danger to society and must not be tolerated?
    My Q. Why, as a atheist am I more of a evil bad guy because of my belief then a hostile religion like the Muslim religion?

    Questions I often ask myself, when thinking or debating over religion. To me ALL religion is a fraud, a false hope that their is something better after death, when in fact were just all maggot food... but because of my belief I'M the heathen.
    Magnum |TG-18th|


    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.


  • #2
    Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

    Well... Almost all religion is a plagiarism of another, bits and pieces changed, values and morals skewed, ideas of control and guidance implanted. Christian, muslim or hindu, its not the religion but interpretation of the religion. There are just as many crazy christian nuts as there are muslim extremist. As an Atheist myself I have had many christian and muslim freinds, and both are appalled at what indoctrinated, weak minds will do in the name of religion. America and christianity are no exception and in its history have done some very horrific things in the name of religion and there ignorance. Although I believe in a free mind, free will and critical thought with reason, I understand why some hold religion so tight and depend on it. Promises of after life and the dependance on a supreme being that will punish the wicked and reward the good. That being said, I don't need it because I see the hypocrisy most religions hold, I ask the deep questions like, What is forever? and how long could I stand to be just me and have all my answers given. Sounds like madness to me, I am only 38 and occasionally cant stand being in my own skin lol, and then you say FOREVER! Well all I can say is the universe as we know it is more magical and on a far grander scale then any religion can compare, we are all a part of this glorious existence, and who knows, energy can neither be created or destroyed, only transformed. So I do not limit my imagination to any one religion and I base my morals of off the life I have lived but I also understand some people just do not know better and are a product of there environment and believe what they are doing is correct. All I can do is shake my head and hope that people wake they hell up. Cause I can tell you this, when I die and find myself standing in front of any of the god creations invented here on earth and they bring judgment down on me for eating meat on friday or allowing gay marriage or masterbating I am gonna blow up because I want no part of it and lucifur is gonna have to make room for the new dog in town. I meen no disrespect to anyone but I always try to explain the importance of reason and critical thought in a respectful way to people trying to sell there religion to me, and when they look at me like I am crazy when I tell them I am atheist, I smile, ask them to pray for me and bid them a good day. Magnum we are pretty much stuck between a rock and a cross, it's a mad world for sure.

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    • #3
      Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

      Originally posted by Magnum50 View Post
      My Q. If I started a religion that required all non-believers to be killed, would it be allowed?
      My Q. I'm all for religious freedom, but when do we say enough is enough, this religion is a danger to society and must not be tolerated?
      My Q. Why, as a atheist am I more of a evil bad guy because of my belief then a hostile religion like the Muslim religion?
      What is religion? It is typically a shared common belief system and it is comprised of people. Before you phrase a question as if a entire religion is bad or negative, ask yourself is it truly the religion or the people (in this case a minority) behind it?

      Those same three questions could be posed of most older religions in the world, including Christianity and Catholism at one point or another in years past.

      Here is a little light reading to help you get started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim I encourage you to go to your local library and find out more! Form an educated opinion.
      |TG-18th| Acreo Aeneas
      TG World of Tanks Clan Executive Officer
      Former 9th & 13th

      Pronounciation: Eh-Cree-Oh Ah-Nay-Ess
      Still can't say it? Call me Acorn then. -.-





      SSDs I Own: Kingston HyperX 3K (240 GB), Samsung 840 Pro (256 GB), Samsung 840 EVO (250 GB), Samsung 840 x 2 (120 GB), Plextor M5S (120 GB), OCZ Vertex (30 GB)

      TG Primer and Rules

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      • #4
        Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

        "Hostile religion like the Muslim religion".. wow.. Over generalize much?

        I deserve a ribbon for Mortar Specialist

        Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
        J.F.C. Fuller

        Proud to have been a member of the 5th, 71st and my beloved 19th

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        • #5
          Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

          As a Northern Irishman, let me tell you that ALL religions are bull****. Christians take pleasure in shooting blowing up and maiming each other too. However, I do also understand the more aggressive stance of certain Islamic sects, in fact I can draw many parallels with it to the situation here.

          I do agree with your points on atheism. I simply have seen and heard too much **** to believe in anything now, yet to many that makes me some sort of bad guy. I just refuse to get drawn into the illogical arguments they tend to put forward.

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          • #6
            Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

            Pretty sure most Muslims don't go door to door looking to shoot people. Just saying.

            "Enough is enough..." What does that entail? Sounds a lot like militant atheist speak to me.
            Skud


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            • #7
              Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

              Religion is great,

              if you need a permanent casus belli...
              sigpic|TG-6th|ghadlan
              [unit][armor]

              Sure I have flown plenty of choppers, I have just never landed one.

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              • #8
                Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                Originally posted by Magnum50 View Post
                "They came to our house at around 8 p.m. and asked us in Swahili whether we were Muslims. My husband told them we were Christians and they shot him in the head and chest," said Anne Gathigi.

                And yet we still tolerate a hostile religion because it's their "right"?







                Thousands of people suffered through the Inquisitions in the name of the ruling class, Catholics, maintaining their control.

                Many people used their christian faith as a justification for slavery; often citing that it was not banned by the bible. Indeed a current Arkansas congressman said the following:

                If slavery were so God-awful, why didnít Jesus or Paul condemn it, why was it in the Constitution and why wasnít there a war before 1861?
                The South has always stood by the Constitution and limited government. When one attacks the Confederate Battle Flag, he is certainly denouncing these principles of government as well as Christianity.


                Yet simultaneously you see that most Christians disagree and try to separate themselves from both their historical and contemporary extremists.

                3 Muslims killed by Buddhists in Sri Lanka

                Then there is peaceful Buddhism in Sri-Lanka where there is an anti-muslim movement being peddled by this guy: .

                The truth is that humans are capable of committing terrible acts and religion is separate of this. Often times, as religion is a unifying force, it serves as a way for people to peddle their own opinions in the form of divine right and truth. Religion isn't the problem; the people are.

                My Q. I'm all for religious freedom, but when do we say enough is enough, this religion is a danger to society and must not be tolerated?
                This is a slippery slope. If you target, explicitly a religion, any of them, you are creating an environment that allows and feeds off of discrimination. Just look at what run-away legislation like the Patriot Act can do. There is only one good generalization: that all other generalizations do more harm than good. You can not simplify Islam and all of its followers because a small portion is violent and criminal. Otherwise we'd be able to condemn all religions by the fact that within their ranks are undoubtedly rapists, murders, and thieves.

                My Q. Why, as a atheist am I more of a evil bad guy because of my belief then a hostile religion like the Muslim religion?
                Probably because you challenge them and their faith and are completely incapable of compatibility when talking about moral arguments. They use their religion as justification and you must use rational reasoning constrained to experiences here and not supernatural concepts.

                Questions I often ask myself, when thinking or debating over religion. To me ALL religion is a fraud, a false hope that their is something better after death, when in fact were just all maggot food... but because of my belief I'M the heathen.
                Do yourself a favor and never debate religion, or at the very least try to accept that the pious will always peddle their beliefs onto you (much like anyone who isn't apathetic). To them you are a heathen but to you their opinion is of no weight. You'll never please anyone all of the time.

                To prove that, as an agnostic talking to an atheist, I am greatly offended by your careless generalization of the entire Muslim population of the world. Your lack of understanding that there is more to Islam than what you read in headlines combined with your demagoguery does very little but paint you as Xenophobic and intolerable yourself. I find it incredibly ironic that in your attempt to appeal to the religious people in your social circle you offer up another lamb to the slaughter.

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                • #9
                  Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                  ^^^^ +1

                  I deserve a ribbon for Mortar Specialist

                  Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
                  J.F.C. Fuller

                  Proud to have been a member of the 5th, 71st and my beloved 19th

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                    Originally posted by Jeepo View Post
                    As a Northern Irishman, let me tell you that ALL religions are bull****.
                    I (personally) disagree. Atheism in itself is a religion. They believe in not believing in other religions. See what I did there? :p

                    Linky: http://www.strangenotions.com/is-atheism-a-religion/ (If you'd like to know more about why Atheism is considered a religion.)

                    I don't think my own beliefs/religion is a bunch of bull. I'm an Nichiren Buddhist and we believe in world peace and personal happiness. And we don't go around hurting people or forcing our beliefs upon them. We tend to make a very open approach. :)

                    ...try to accept that the pious will always peddle their beliefs onto you (much like anyone who isn't apathetic). To them you are a heathen but to you their opinion is of no weight. You'll never please anyone all of the time.
                    [MENTION=37421]Ytman[/MENTION], are you referring to Fundamentalists?
                    |TG-18th| Acreo Aeneas
                    TG World of Tanks Clan Executive Officer
                    Former 9th & 13th

                    Pronounciation: Eh-Cree-Oh Ah-Nay-Ess
                    Still can't say it? Call me Acorn then. -.-





                    SSDs I Own: Kingston HyperX 3K (240 GB), Samsung 840 Pro (256 GB), Samsung 840 EVO (250 GB), Samsung 840 x 2 (120 GB), Plextor M5S (120 GB), OCZ Vertex (30 GB)

                    TG Primer and Rules

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                    • #11
                      Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                      See, this was enlightening... thou my comments were taken more to the extreme then I meant, of course I know of religions past, I was referring more in this modern age where only one religion that I know where the majority believe that it's their way or death, thou only the extreme carry it out, a lot more of them are OK with it.

                      My Q. was more...where do we draw the line between religious freedom and extremism. Don't mis-read my comments as a personal attack, was just opening the door to feedback on a sensitive subject.
                      Magnum |TG-18th|


                      We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                        Your example, correct me if I'm wrong, is from an African state. Is your question regarding the rule of law for that state (not cited)?

                        When you say "we", are you talking about U.S. citizens, Europeans, Asiatic...?

                        Why the need for details? Because not every nation has the same constitution, liberties, or Common Law. If that example happened in the U.S., as a law officer you know that the suspects would be arrested for murder, tried, and if found guilty sentenced according to the statutes of the particular STATE. The label of religious intolerance may be used to explain the murderers' motives, but the arrest and trial are based on the act of murder. If the suspects were preventing people from entering their church, but not killed anyone, then they would be violating the people's First Amendment right of freedom to worship, i.e. freedom of religion. So we see two situations where the laws of the U.S. condemn the act of violence (murder), and protect the individual's freedom of religion. What are the laws and rights of the people in your example?

                        So to answer your Question "where do we draw the line between religious freedom and extremism": In the U.S. it's simple really, we defend religious freedom, and condemn ACTS of violence. If a person or group are planning or commit a crime, then that person or group must be held accountable according to the laws therein (Fed., State, local).

                        :icon_frow
                        |RIP| Counter=Ops 12.09.09 : Marine - Squadmate - Friend
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                          We as in the human race... the argument is on one side freedom of religion while the other is... what if the religion is violent... OK, so it's not referred to one religion that we know I'm talking about... Say I started a religion and started getting followers of my Dog Shadow as a god, and say my religion said that woman had no rights, could be raped and killed whenever man saw fit, and say that my religion stated, if you didn't believe your head must be cut off of your body, and your body is fed to my god dog shadow... (see I'm lighting it up a little here, with some dark humor.)

                          Would it be my right to have this religion or would modern mankind say... "Wait a minute, wrong answer... no no no, not in this world".

                          and then if you answer that Q without reading into it like everyone seemed to do above... then put it to a religion that pretty much believes that but most don't act on it, but a good chunk of people do...shouldn't that religion be deemed dangerous to mankind and banned... that is my question. Not what happened 200 years ago, not "well not everyone believes that" etc etc.
                          Magnum |TG-18th|


                          We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                            Originally posted by Zippy View Post
                            Your example, correct me if I'm wrong, is from an African state. Is your question regarding the rule of law for that state (not cited)?

                            When you say "we", are you talking about U.S. citizens, Europeans, Asiatic...?

                            Why the need for details? Because not every nation has the same constitution, liberties, or Common Law. If that example happened in the U.S. . . .
                            I think it was quite obvious that it was a common appeal to the concept of a universal set of human rights. Whether or not you feel that there is a reason for such a generalization of human rights or only believe that states and governments can grant 'rights' is in between semantics and apathy.

                            The greater point you are getting at is the application of law and order of a society and the right for a society to define these rights as they see fit. Certainly no one shall argue that the Chinese Premier of State knows what rights an American should have, but ultimately these concepts, such as constitutions, liberties, or common law, are just as able to be juxtaposed with a concept of universal rights.

                            The difference between a common plea for basic human rights and enforcable law is only just the words plea and enforcable. Theoretically such a civilization could be fostered where the entire human condition could be maintained according to some basic thoughts. This is nothing new and is nothing different from the concept of a social contract; simply its scale is larger than was previously feasible due to slow transportation and communication methods.

                            However, ultimately much of the world is not ready for such sweeping concepts and all it takes is a few thousand well funded fundamentalists armed with 1970s weaponry and 7th century ideals and you can stall anything.

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                            • #15
                              Re: when religious freedom has gone to far...

                              The sad fact of the vast majority of religions is the persecution of it's own people.

                              Muslims kill Muslims. Christians kill Christians.

                              The same argument can be made for religion that can be made for guns..

                              Religions don't kill people. People kill people. This has been true since before the first monkey walked on two legs. In fact, if you google violent monkey behavior, you can find plenty of videos of monkeys killing each other for senseless acts. There are even records of monkeys killing other monkeys simply to bring a prospective mate a "gift" of flesh.

                              Call it what you will, but the curse of our existence is intelligence. With intelligence comes feelings. With feelings comes anger and jealousy. And with anger and jealousy comes violence. It's not a matter of religious beliefs in most cases. You take a man who is raised in extreme poverty... who can barely feed his family or himself... and you put him beside a man who has food, water, and shelter every day of their life, and there will be conflict. Compound on top of that numbers of men in the millions, and you have a silent chaos brewing on the side of poverty. The same can be said for the feeling of superiority from the richer man. Early Christians felt better and more correct than their Muslim counterparts... attacks and battles and violence ensued. Christians were generally the aggressors, if memory serves me, and that built the foundation for the term "kill the infidel". Christians... then the white people.. then the West... then everyone who doesn't believe... then even those who don't believe enough... the enemy of the extremist Muslim has grown and grown because of something modern people have no idea about. If modern African Americans did suicide bombing and random murders because their ancestors were slaves, it would essentially be the same thing as we're seeing with extremism today.

                              The answer to your question is no where. You simply cannot draw a line between any religion and it's extremism. It's the same reason a cop can't look at you and think "pothead" or "rapist". You simply don't know what another person is about with evidence of behavior. This, in turn, causes a very, very difficult palate to read. I get on an airplane and see an Indian man dressed in a suit. I get a little nervous. I think the vast majority of Americans do. But that doesn't change the fact that the man probably isn't Muslim. He may hate Muslims. He may have a Muslim brother who he disowned a few years back. He may have forced the woman he loves to convert from Muslim to Atheism. He may be a rapist. He may be a millionaire. He may be a man with a white mother and a black father who came out a bit mixed and spends too much time in the sun. You simply cannot look at a person, see a general description and say, "Extremist."

                              I live in Tucson, AZ. It's very easy for a white person in Tucson to look at a Mexican and say, "illegal". Is it offensive? Sure. But, it is something that has been trained into my brain by my government and my peers. This person may or may not be a leech who is sucking the life out of your home. Is he really? Probably not. But that doesn't change the fact that we see it that way. Just like when I drive across town and see the Mosque. The first thing... absolute first thing... I feel is fear. Is that a training ground for suicide bombers? Probably not. But it's drilled into my brain.

                              The point to this rant is that they are killing themselves with their extremism. They are drawing their own line. They are making it difficult for anyone of their religion to walk the face of the Earth because of what their brothers and sisters have done. 20 years, 30 years... it'll be a thing of the past. One group of extremists are not going to take over the planet. Will they kill a lot of people? Sure. Does that suck? Yes. But for every life they take, they take a minute percentage of tolerance away from the rest of the world.

                              There's no need to draw a line. They are drawing their own.

                              Mom
                              Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                              Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                              You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                              Forever Perplexed

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