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  • Taxes and the border...

    So... I've been preaching this for a long time to friends and family. I just want to know if you military/police/etc guys feel the same way.

    There's a tidal wave at the border. Men, women, kids... they're all wanting in to our country. And we're spending billions trying to stop it.

    Am I wrong to say that if we remove income tax, and increase sales tax... and open the border wide as hell... we'll solve the problem, and save the country at the same time?

    You can go find a job that pays cash tax free just about anywhere. But, go to a grocery store or gas station and try to buy milk tax free.

    Am I wrong?

    Mom
    Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
    Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

    You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
    Forever Perplexed

  • #2
    Re: Taxes and the border...

    2 problems

    1. Implying the government would ever even entertain the idea of removing the unconstitutional income tax (because they make so much money taxing you for things you buy, own, and the money you make)...

    2. Businesses would probably not go for it.

    Interesting idea, but there are a host of other issues behind your idea.
    Skud


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    • #3
      Re: Taxes and the border...

      Originally posted by YerMom View Post
      So... I've been preaching this for a long time to friends and family. I just want to know if you military/police/etc guys feel the same way.

      There's a tidal wave at the border. Men, women, kids... they're all wanting in to our country. And we're spending billions trying to stop it.

      Am I wrong to say that if we remove income tax, and increase sales tax... and open the border wide as hell... we'll solve the problem, and save the country at the same time?
      What is the mechanism in which an increased sales tax would 'save the country' and 'solve the problem'? Are you implying that you'd want to make goods, necessities even, so expensive as to lock out the tidal wave as you say? What is the benefit for repealing the income tax and moving to a consumption based tax system, specifically considering that our current economy hinges on consumption.


      You can go find a job that pays cash tax free just about anywhere. But, go to a grocery store or gas station and try to buy milk tax free.

      Am I wrong?
      In Pennsylvania food, clothing, and medicine are tax free. Under the table jobs are exactly part of the problem, the very people who complain about the 'illegals', also enjoy paying for their labor because they can undercut the average American worker.

      Comment


      • #4
        Taxes and the border...

        Bring everyone home from Iraq and Astan.

        "Train" along the border with our military. Training hours in your V22? Great fly up and down this fence and spot illegal entry with your flir.
        Last edited by Portable.Cougar; 07-05-2014, 12:25 AM. Reason: cause
        doYouEvenLuftwaffe

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        • #5
          Re: Taxes and the border...

          The real reason behind illegal immigration being a problem in the United states is the lack of taxes a business pays on wages paid to an employee coupled with the taxes lost by the employee itself.

          Population is a good thing for a country, in most cases. It means more money. But when you add population, but you do not add revenue from that population, you end up with loss.

          All this propaganda that is flooding the news and every other outlet is an expression of that. Why else would we care? They're not taking our jobs, we're giving them to them. They may be mooching off the government, but that's a flaw in government, not a product of illegal immigration.

          So, if we eliminate that tax, and raise sales tax, it will put more money in the pockets of the people, and in turn would put more money back into the market. More money in the market means more growth. More growth means more jobs. More jobs means more money, and thus, the cycle continues.

          It's like I said... as an illegal immigrant, you can find a job picking a field, or doing physical labor... and the person will pay you cash, all tax free and pretty. But, take the same person, add my scenario, and then let that person try to not pay higher taxes on goods. It won't happen. That's not to mention the money we will save trying to stop them from crossing the border.

          Am I saying I want America to become Mexico? No.

          Think about it this way... if you are an illegal immigrant crossing the border... what do you get for free?

          Goods? No. Services? No. Home? No. Car? No. Electricity? No. Water? No. Money? Yes. They make money working, and they get it for free. We'll never stop illegal immigration, just like we'll never stop drug abuse. But, we can stop spending money to stop it, and embrace the revenue growth we could see if we created an environment that profited off of it.

          Mom
          Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
          Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

          You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
          Forever Perplexed

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Taxes and the border...



            I must be from another planet, or time, Cause the way I see things we all live on this rock. Borders are imaginary, money is fiat, and the ruling classes serve themselves. Taxes do not go to the things I feel are needed, like education and health care, infrastructure and innovation. Defense ? HA! BS! Build a fence? WTF? The only defense against all the wrong things happening on this rock is education, with that people will see there is no difference between Rep or Dem, black or white, american or mexican. We are all passengers on these few dozen trips around the sun. The earth dosn't need us we need it. And we don't need gov it needs us, but we have been washed over by big business, bankers, and in the U.S. a bunch of idiotic, corrupt, politicians, drowned out over bias, opinionated mouth pieces called news networks that spew vulgar misinformation and lies from the very people making all these uneducated decisions for the masses and confusing those that are not clear headed enough to see because they have been fed ignorance and BS for so long. Where are all the people complaining about all the jobs lost to robots, there not even people for crying out loud. IDK, SMH, I will just sit back and watch the idiot circus keep falling on there faces until the walls come tumbling down and I will laugh.

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            • #7
              Re: Taxes and the border...

              Originally posted by YerMom View Post
              The real reason behind illegal immigration being a problem in the United states is the lack of taxes a business pays on wages paid to an employee coupled with the taxes lost by the employee itself.
              I'm not really sure this is the problem. The lost taxes on wages is probably very minor considering most jobs that are taken by truly illegal immigrants are low wage ones which allows a person to probably make around 16k a year if we are gracious. Considering that the tax rate for this bracket is 10% and 15%, IE 10-15 cents a dollar, the federal government would be making just $900-1950 a head. Even assuming that every single one is working (untrue) and not paying income tax (which is flatly false) this means that the federal government is losing $240 Million dollars at most. While this figure is large (and admittedly overblown) it is hardly a deficit that would destroy our country.

              Population is a good thing for a country, in most cases. It means more money. But when you add population, but you do not add revenue from that population, you end up with loss.

              All this propaganda that is flooding the news and every other outlet is an expression of that. Why else would we care? They're not taking our jobs, we're giving them to them. They may be mooching off the government, but that's a flaw in government, not a product of illegal immigration.
              On one hand I'd like to say that the point of government is not to turn a profit. A government, like we have, is designed to provide a safe and fair state of existence, "a more perfect union" | "of many, one", if you will.

              By comparison, look at the elderly population of our country today. People live far longer now than ever before and at some point they become a drain on society. It is very common to hear about a family with a live at home grand parent, sometimes with a serious medical problem which adds economic and emotional costs. Healthcare is a known drain on our economy and medicare/aid are high cost programs. Does this mean we need to find a way to profit off of elderly citizens better? Should we tax their housing more? Should we tax their food more? Or should we tax the services provided by assisted care workers? I mean if there is any section of our population that is a drain we'd probably be able to agree its the retired elderly in need of medical aid, and they are definitely mooching.

              So, if we eliminate that tax, and raise sales tax, it will put more money in the pockets of the people, and in turn would put more money back into the market. More money in the market means more growth. More growth means more jobs. More jobs means more money, and thus, the cycle continues.

              It's like I said... as an illegal immigrant, you can find a job picking a field, or doing physical labor... and the person will pay you cash, all tax free and pretty. But, take the same person, add my scenario, and then let that person try to not pay higher taxes on goods. It won't happen. That's not to mention the money we will save trying to stop them from crossing the border.
              Eliminating the progressive income tax and instating a regressive sales tax is probably the worst thing you could suggest for the average American. Obviously you know that regressive taxes are damaging to the poor because your suggestion is clearly designed to suffocate the ' illegal's ' livelihood. But think it through more clearly and you'll see that most Americans would suffer just the same, you know the 'real' Americans.

              An aggressive sales tax would be disastrous to most Americans because, as Micro-Economics teaches us, the less income you have the larger percentage you spend. Therefore you are taxing the poorest Americans by percentage more than the wealthiest. This would only serve to exacerbate the gap between wealth and poverty in our society.

              Think about it this way... if you are an illegal immigrant crossing the border... what do you get for free?

              Goods? No. Services? No. Home? No. Car? No. Electricity? No. Water? No. Money? Yes. They make money working, and they get it for free.
              Working for money is not getting it for free. I have to assume you mean something else that I am missing.

              We'll never stop illegal immigration, just like we'll never stop drug abuse. But, we can stop spending money to stop it, and embrace the revenue growth we could see if we created an environment that profited off of it.
              We could pull a Custer and enlist them all in our military and fight the Taliban and ISIL with them. Promise them citizenship if they live through three deployments or kill enough terrorists That or we could put them to work in our farms for no wages for several years and if they survive give them freedom. Because, you know, we must exploit human lives for profit.


              Or, if there is such a problem with lost income from undocumented immigrants, we could, you know, just document them and let them pay income tax, while simultaneously going after those who exploit their labor here, instead of treating them like the scapegoat we do, blaming them for nearly everything wrong with the country.

              What is the problem with reforming our system which doesn't allow for easier immigration? There is a demand for American Citizenship lets capitalize on it instead of making them the new Irish, the new Jews, the new Catholics, the new Polish, the new Germans, the new Chinese, the new Japanese, etc. etc.

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              • #8
                Re: Taxes and the border...

                I would like to add an amendment to the very first paragraph from my above post. While the cost of immigration may be relatively small in regards to Federal Revenue from unclaimed income tax it is known that our current system does a very good job at straining our schools. Also the very fact that we've made crossing so difficult has created a very lucrative black market which is thriving. Keeping emigration difficult, costly, and time intensive (13 years to emigrate legally) opens us up to the sort of problem we have today. This isn't new, Reagan had dealt with this once before, and while he succeeded in helping so many Americans we are today back in the same place, if not, on a scale greater in size.

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                • #9
                  Re: Taxes and the border...

                  I misspoke... and you misunderstood, I think.

                  Making money for free is money that is made but is not taxed. I highlighted more on the money being made by the worker, and not enough on the money being saved by the employer. Income tax on businesses hurts us far more than income tax on workers, as it pertains to illegal immigrants.

                  Another point I'd like to make is that I don't want to be "for profit" by any means. What I see, and the reality we all face, is a Y in the road. We can either stand up for what we believe is right, a feeling that is shared by the vast majority of our citizens, regardless of their political/religious/etc beliefs. Or... we can try to change the system we have in place. One of the biggest problems with the modern world, imho, is a lack of time for anything. We move so fast and do so many things in a day that, regardless of how we feel, we don't have the damn time to start a political revolution... We're all too scared of what we will lose should the system break down. We all want the change, and all we can do is continue to get used by the government, regardless of which side we put in power...

                  The point I'm trying to make is that we can't change the world anymore. We, as a country, have a leadership that does not care what we, as the people, care. When was the last time you were asked how you felt about legalizing marijuana or abortion or illegal immigration or... etc etc etc. Never. I'm 28 years old, and I've NEVER ONCE been asked by ANYONE in office what I think/want/desire for my country. Then, some idiot stands up and says "I PROMISE THIS AND THAT AND STUFF" and we all go, "yeah... maybe that guy." It's crazy, and it gets nothing done. For the people went out the window a hundred years ago. And, to that end, the only chance we have at getting something done is something that will turn a profit for the power in the country. If I go to Senator Guy Whofails, and I tell him, "I can show you a way to make a profit off this fiasco"... then I will have a bill passed in a matter of months, and the guy will be hailed as a genius.

                  Do I agree with you? Sure. The RIGHT way to do things is the easiest way, and the best way for the country. But, come on, when was the last time you remember a politician doing the RIGHT thing at the RIGHT time? Me neither.

                  Mom
                  Games lubricate the body and the mind. - Benjamin Franklin
                  Ever since the beginning, to keep the world spinning, it takes all kinds of kinds. -Miranda Lambert

                  You're a 34, Mom. Thirty. Four.
                  Forever Perplexed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Taxes and the border...

                    Nothing of any importance will change until term limits are imposed on are elected officials. They are salesmen working for big business and almost all of them lawyers. The problem is big business has no borders and no loyalties except to the dollar. We need a central hub for problem solvers skilled in there areas of expertise. The process needs to be open and transparent. Until that happens we will continue to ride this rigged game at the cost of humanity to benefit the few who hold the world hostage through red tape, legalese, misinformation, lies, strong arming, and threats.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Taxes and the border...

                      Originally posted by YerMom View Post
                      Another point I'd like to make is that I don't want to be "for profit" by any means. What I see, and the reality we all face, is a Y in the road. We can either stand up for what we believe is right, a feeling that is shared by the vast majority of our citizens, regardless of their political/religious/etc beliefs. Or... we can try to change the system we have in place. One of the biggest problems with the modern world, imho, is a lack of time for anything. We move so fast and do so many things in a day that, regardless of how we feel, we don't have the damn time to start a political revolution... We're all too scared of what we will lose should the system break down. We all want the change, and all we can do is continue to get used by the government, regardless of which side we put in power...
                      I more prefer this aside so I'll start here:

                      You know who does have time to start a revolution and be politically involved and active? Lobbyists. Maybe our lack of time is part of the problem, and maybe the real problem is that we spend most of our waking days working to make others money instead of improving our own lives.

                      The point I'm trying to make is that we can't change the world anymore. We, as a country, have a leadership that does not care what we, as the people, care. When was the last time you were asked how you felt about legalizing marijuana or abortion or illegal immigration or... etc etc etc. Never. I'm 28 years old, and I've NEVER ONCE been asked by ANYONE in office what I think/want/desire for my country. Then, some idiot stands up and says "I PROMISE THIS AND THAT AND STUFF" and we all go, "yeah... maybe that guy." It's crazy, and it gets nothing done. For the people went out the window a hundred years ago. And, to that end, the only chance we have at getting something done is something that will turn a profit for the power in the country. If I go to Senator Guy Whofails, and I tell him, "I can show you a way to make a profit off this fiasco"... then I will have a bill passed in a matter of months, and the guy will be hailed as a genius.
                      The system is a little bit out of our control because the system is more concerned about keeping a broken and unequal economy. The fact that lobbyists have the true power of our nation is a direct result of the concept that money is freedom, that more money means more freedom, and that people with money are more free to experience a life without much work. I personally think we all have the time but that we are conditioned to think that we don't or to think really poorly of those who actually drop what they do and protest. We do have the power but we are just too afraid to step out of line.

                      Do I agree with you? Sure. The RIGHT way to do things is the easiest way, and the best way for the country. But, come on, when was the last time you remember a politician doing the RIGHT thing at the RIGHT time? Me neither.

                      Mom
                      I think it happens. All politicians can have their moments but when the game they play is rigged and crooked its hard to not yourself be swayed. For all of the insane hawkish nature of McCain of late (and I did vote for him in 08) I think he is a very strong voice for needed campaign reform, something that MUST HAPPEN for us to begin to regain control over what is ultimately OUR government.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Taxes and the border...

                        I've lived most of my life in boarder states in the south west.

                        We cannot just keep letting anyone and everyone come across our open boarder.

                        Spend some time in LA and you can see why.

                        Entire city's and communities there are 100% Spanish speaking. Store fronts and billboards are in Spanish. Property value plummets, crime is through the roof. The amount of non licensed and non insured drivers is staggering.

                        Everyone in SoCal had a story when they were hit by or involved in an accident with an illegal alien driver.

                        They came here because Latin America is a cesspool. Great, I get your desire for a better life. Problem is we have allowed them to create Mexico north in SoCal. And guess what... It's now also a cesspool.

                        I live in Arizona now. A few years back they cracked down in illegal immigrants. Now a days low paying jobs are taken by high schools kids, my landscaper is in his 30's. He pays his taxes and has health insurance for all his employees.

                        Working in the construction trade I have seen illegal immigration destroy the industry. Lowest bidder mentality has created a workforce of Spanish speaking sub par labor.

                        The root of the problem is that. We allow or look the other way at the hiring practices of companies. Allowing them to pay illegal aliens less than minim wage to lower their bottom line. Doing so crates more illegal immigrants and takes tax money out of the hands of the state. Strangles our health care system and destroys our communities.

                        My names Ryan, and most of you will think I'm a racist.
                        doYouEvenLuftwaffe

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                        • #13
                          Re: Taxes and the border...

                          Free, unregulated immigration doesn't really help this country nor Mexico. What we really should be spending the money on is helping Mexico improve their own citizenry's lives, offer better jobs, etc. I don't mean just throw money at them, that often has an opposing effect. American companies already have lots of investments in our closest southern neighbor. Why not tap into those connections and see what can be done to help Mexican citizens in their own country. Perhaps then this "tidal wave" of immigrants wouldn't want to immigrate en-masse to the U.S.A.
                          |TG-18th| Acreo Aeneas
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                          • #14
                            Re: Taxes and the border...

                            You are right

                            South park did an episode on this a few years back. The premise was people from the future start coming back back in time as the future is full of poverty and strife. At the start they allow the future people to come to the past and live as though it was the future. When the present starts to resemble the abysmal future they decide rather than bicker and argue what to do about the refuges, they decide to fix the future and make it better. If the future is a better place then there will be no reason to come to the past.

                            Goobacks - Full Episode - Season 08 - Ep 06 | South Park Studios
                            doYouEvenLuftwaffe

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                            • #15
                              Re: Taxes and the border...

                              Originally posted by Portable.Cougar View Post
                              My names Ryan, and most of you will think I'm a racist.
                              In Sweden people would think you were a racist, a nazi, a sexist and that you probably hate gay people.
                              Kinda funny actually.
                              sigpic|TG-6th|ghadlan
                              [unit][armor]

                              Sure I have flown plenty of choppers, I have just never landed one.

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